<oak231>
Hello, im having problems with X on KISS. I have TearFree set in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d but there is still a lot of screen tearing, this doesn't happen on other distro's.
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<wael_>
sucks bro
<testuser[m]>
oak231: maybe it's not using ur desired gpu driver
<wael_>
yeah you have to specify the GPU driver most of the time
<midfavila>
i should probably get around to porting xenocara to kiss at some point
<midfavila>
need to get an xlib that doesn't need xcb too...
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<wael[m]>
i love xenocara
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<wael[m]>
ioraff: why is bzip2 marked as a dependency in python, firefox, cmake?
<midfavila>
if anyone here has experience tinkering with xfbdev, could you get your system's alt key to be handled properly?
<midfavila>
programs under Xfbdev on my laptop seem iffy about it. some just don't recognize it, others (rxvt) handle it properly
<midfavila>
xev also recognizes alt_l as... alt_l
<midfavila>
so i'm not really sure where to go from here. nothing super useful after running a search
<midfavila>
remapping right alt to keycode 108 seems to work, but left is still unrecognized. i imagine this has something to do with the linux's input handling, since afaik xfbdev piggybacks off it...
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<midfavila>
fiddling with xmodmap more, forcibly setting the symbol with the string
<midfavila>
64, which appears to be the default mapping for left alt, gets ignored by application programs by default
<midfavila>
for... some reason
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<midfavila>
okay, no, that wasn't it either. keycode 64 *is* what you're after... but xmodmap's modifier printout doesn't reflect any change. hrm. regardless, it does work
<sad_plan>
o/
<midfavila>
hey sad_plan
<wael[m]>
holy shit its sad_plan
<sad_plan>
> if anyone here has experience tinkering with xfbdev, could you get your system's alt key to be handled properly? alt works for me, but super isnt recognized by xev
<sad_plan>
hey wael[m]
<sad_plan>
midfavila
<sad_plan>
midfavila: super gets keysyms 0x0 NoSymbol for me. but Alt key works just fine on my end anyway. have alot of keyindings in sxhkd with it
<midfavila>
super also syms 0x0 for me
<midfavila>
i suspect the kernel's keyboard driver doesn't handle it
<midfavila>
er, no, just checked
<midfavila>
yeah, so, if my limited understand of keyboard input under X is correct...
<midfavila>
i don't actually have any programs that use super so ymmv
<midfavila>
okay, seems simple enough actually
<midfavila>
keycode n is whatever the kernel passes, everything after = is the symbol that X passes to your applications when receiving keycode n
<midfavila>
so keycode 133 = Super_L works just as well as the previous string
<sad_plan>
are you passing that to the kernel commandline? just to be sure I got that right :P
<midfavila>
no, no
<midfavila>
i'm using xmodmap
<sad_plan>
ah
<sad_plan>
I dont have that
<midfavila>
for whatever reason i thought xmodmap relied on Xkb
<midfavila>
you can grab xmodmap from my ports
<sad_plan>
yeah just built it now
<midfavila>
cool
<midfavila>
let me know if it works for you
<sad_plan>
ah, now it seems to recognize it
<sad_plan>
I had some issues figuring out the syntax for it at first
<sad_plan>
Ill create a keybinding for it, and see if I can get it to be recognized
<sad_plan>
hm. it behaves like it did before. ignores superkey, and if the second key is pressed, the keybinding just goes through regardless. ill check in a separate tty
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<sad_plan>
midfavila: the answer is no. it behaves like it did before. say if you bind super + y. pressing exclusivly the key 'y' it does what what youd expect it to do if super is also pressed
<sad_plan>
atleast thats what Ive got from this tiny test that is
<midfavila>
hmm
<midfavila>
i'm not sure then
<midfavila>
i just tested with a tiling wm which doesn't seem to like my laptop in the least
<midfavila>
for whatever reason it's not picking up either super or meta
<midfavila>
yet applications are, so...
<sad_plan>
strange
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<midfavila>
could also just be this wm idk
<sad_plan>
I dont thing dwm for me recognized super either. however havent tried this trick yet though
<midfavila>
ah, i think i've found a potential lead
<sad_plan>
yeah?
<midfavila>
under xfbdev xev reports that super is being repeated, like a regular key
<midfavila>
under x.org xev reports that it's being held, like ctrl, alt or other bucky-bits
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<midfavila>
then again maybe that's a machine-dependent thing...
<midfavila>
idk
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<sad_plan>
perhaps. ill do some more testing later
<midfavila>
okay so, it's not a machine thing -- you need to use xmodmap - add mod4 Super_L Super_R Hyper_L Hyper_R
<midfavila>
unfortunately, while that fixes the unusual behavior i observed, it doesn't seem to allow the window manager i'm testing with to pick up events
<midfavila>
i'd test with dwm but it requires xft
<sad_plan>
try sowm
<sad_plan>
only needs x11 and xau iirc
<midfavila>
sure but does it have any keybinds?
<midfavila>
if so which should i test? no manpage is included
<midfavila>
and i'm not trawling through the source code
<sad_plan>
it does. launches the terminal, dmenu etc
<sad_plan>
it uses the superkey by default
<sad_plan>
its listed in the config.h
<sad_plan>
just change the const char* term[] from st to w/e you use. maybe also the keybinding to accept something else too. like alt + enter for term, but super + space also works
<sad_plan>
we could also bypass the wm entierly by just launching X without a wm. I used to do that last year. only used wmutils :p
<midfavila>
i doubt that would make a difference
<midfavila>
it steals keyboard focus from the application when using mod4, but either the window manager never receives it or it receives something it isn't expecting
<sad_plan>
yeah sounds about right
<midfavila>
thing is, the window manager *has* to be getting *something*, because focus is only stolen when it's a keybind that the wm has set
<midfavila>
just tested by swapping the modmask from mod4 to shift in sowm's config
<midfavila>
that's definitely what's happening
<midfavila>
shift+q no longer reaches applications
<midfavila>
but it doesn't trigger the function it should, which is window deletion
<midfavila>
well, it's clearly a problem for tinycore users as well
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<sad_plan>
seems so..
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<midfavila>
aaa looking at the sheer size of even the "tiny" X server makes me long for MGR even more
<sad_plan>
mgr?
<midfavila>
really teeny tiny windowing system
<midfavila>
from the 80s
<sad_plan>
aah
<midfavila>
the entire code base, including all support libs, ELisp bindings, all clients, the server, the integrated window manager and terminal, all extensions, everything,
<midfavila>
is 66k lines total. not C, everything
<sad_plan>
not bad
<midfavila>
from the SGML to the lisp and LaTex and all the other stuff it includes
<midfavila>
*just the server* and a handful of support libraries like libXext (I think, anyway) from puppy's fork is 167k
<sad_plan>
hm
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<midfavila>
billed as a conference for exploring what might happen if, quote, "we simply used what was best"
<wael[m]>
he got KICKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<wael[m]>
midfavila: bob
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<sad_plan>
wael[m]: oh, yeah I noticed now. well, obviously he hasnt been using irc, or this channel for a long time then. his not using kiss anyway, or his fork for that matter. he's using artix iirc
<wael[m]>
wait his irc was gone not his matrix
<wael[m]>
konimex[m]: helloooo
<wael[m]>
oh wait hes just gone nvm
<wael[m]>
sad_plan: thaksnk for califiriaction
<sad_plan>
np
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<sad_plan>
while on the topic of konimex. I wonder wheer wyverkiss' userbase went. did everyone just stop using it, or did they go to glasnost instead? which also seems to be dead in the water now. no commits since august. hm
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<aelspire>
which KISS variants/forks are still alive?
<sad_plan>
carbs and gkiss seems to be the only ones
<aelspire>
there are quite a few of them but most looks inactive
<sad_plan>
and noir
<sad_plan>
theres alot, or alot of kiss repos that is anyway
<aelspire>
ok, good to know if I need to steal some packages ;)
<cem>
To be fair, maintaining a distro is a pretty time consuming job
<aelspire>
it depends I think
<cem>
On what?
<aelspire>
If someone want to update their system everyday and provide always newest packages - yes
<schillingklaus>
on how many efforts need to be duplicated...
<sad_plan>
cem: yeah, I bet it is. I maintain almost all of my own repo. and its cumbersome. I find myself not doing much productive tbh.. theres several reasons for that for me though :p
<aelspire>
if someone updates their repos for themselves than they have some free time or need to do it - not really
<sad_plan>
s/all of my own/all packages I use in my own repo/
<sad_plan>
btw cem, did you have any plans on updating otools to a newer version of openbsd?
<schillingklaus>
wyverkiss seems abandoned
<sad_plan>
it is
<sad_plan>
since konimex got working on artix, he abondoned it
<sad_plan>
glasnost more or less was the same thing, + some other stuff, but that seems abondoned now too
<aelspire>
KISS is actually fine hobby for me. After 2 days of fighting with nonstandard dbus implementatnions and polkit shithole on debian in my work seeing that linux without all that layers of abstracion and weird bload is possible puts my mind into ease
<midfavila>
aelspire my repos are still active, although they're a little messy
<midfavila>
they're quite the deviation from upstream's afaik
<midfavila>
although i don't provide public tarballs (yet)
<aelspire>
but about duplicated repos - community is cool project
<aelspire>
what KISS need and AFAIK currently has is quick way to share packages' scripts
<aelspire>
so I can steal scripts from you ;)
<sad_plan>
cp $dir/build $newdir
<sad_plan>
its that easy
<sad_plan>
or do kiss fo $pkg $dir to fork the package. that being said, its gotta be on top of PATH
<sad_plan>
thats the beauty of kiss :p its amazingly simple :D
<aelspire>
but kiss-awesome probably needs ressurection
<cem>
Well what I meant was being a distro maintainer. I guess it's not a big hassle if you don't actually care about distributing what you make
<cem>
Like my personal repository is a big ugly mess, but I try my best to keep the carbs repositories as clean as possible
<cem>
sad_plan: I'll get on to it after the holidays :)
<sad_plan>
if noone but you uses it, it doesnt have to be super clean :p Carbs is cool though. never used it myself, but been peaking the repo several times
<aelspire>
midfavila: can I have Your git's address?
<midfavila>
-small and -large are what you're after
<cem>
I have webkit packaged, and I've been meaning to package my fork of lariza, but still couldn't get myself to actually do it
<aelspire>
now I could live on stolen build scripts for a while
<sad_plan>
why not? :p
<midfavila>
aelspire: don't get too excited, my system uses an older version of kiss that doesn't support the modern one's DSL
<aelspire>
midfavila: no problem
<aelspire>
I use stolen build scripts as bootstrap only anyway
<aelspire>
I didn't published messy part of my scripts yet because license woes
<cem>
I fucked up my fork without commiting any changes and I forgot what works and what doesn't
<sad_plan>
aah. thats a bummer :P
<aelspire>
this is pretty grey area some repos has license some doesn't
<aelspire>
but build script is not much of original work
<cem>
Like the version I have installed is not the thing on my repo, and I'm too tired to fix it
<sad_plan>
I see :p
<cem>
Yup :D
<sad_plan>
oh, btw cem, I came to think of something. I noticed you have ruby packaged, with a fix for libressl. Ive had issues earlier with ruby and libressl not building, aswell as now the tarball not working properly without busybox.
<sad_plan>
which youre already aware of
<sad_plan>
why not point it to the git tag instead?
<sad_plan>
this would avoid the %no-extract and busybox line on top
<aelspire>
I was pondering a little while ago - what will happen if dylan comes back and tells discard all comunity works and tells that only him has right to name KISS linux?
<aelspire>
hard fork? community will disband and return all rights to dylan?
<midfavila>
i mean
<midfavila>
you'll just get a bunch of people using "kiss-like" or "kiss-compatible"
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<schillingklaus>
did dylan already complain about the community repos?
<aelspire>
It was what I needed to debug issues in firefox this weekend
<aelspire>
need*
<midfavila>
i don't see why dylan would complain about anything kiss-community does
<midfavila>
part of the selling point of kiss is that BDFL is kind of a symbolic position, given that you can just do your own thing
<aelspire>
I think at this point he should show and claim KISS linux democratic project
<aelspire>
so community can officialy take care of it
<aelspire>
but he don't have any obligation to do anything really
<midfavila>
i mean
<midfavila>
kiss-community doesn't need dylan's blessing is what i'm saying
<midfavila>
even if the name had to be changed it's not like it'd much matter
<aelspire>
yes and this is what I like
<aelspire>
but some official resolve could be cool
<schillingklaus>
dylan vs dilyn ... the ultimate showdown
<midfavila>
my money is on dylan
<midfavila>
his hair is longer so he has more power
<midfavila>
he's like samson or whatever
<sad_plan>
lol ^
<midfavila>
bible hercules
<aelspire>
BDFL is not required and repo can be used as bootstrap only with user completly detaching it from official kiss or community
<aelspire>
and maintaining everything on they own
<sad_plan>
aelspire: you dont even need the official repo, you can bootstrap from something else, and create your own repo straight from the get go
<sad_plan>
s/repo/tarball/
<aelspire>
but not having to do it is and sharing repos are the big plus
<sad_plan>
it is, but its not required. you can initially just grasp KISS linux's concept, create a debian or w/e usb, and create a tarball from it, then unpack it to /mnt and so on
<aelspire>
but central hub helps a lot
<sad_plan>
it can indeed be benefitial if its abit more centraliced, yes
<aelspire>
for discoverability only
<sad_plan>
if someone new looks for kiss linux, theyre likely end up on dylans dead repos, and think the distro is unmaintained
<aelspire>
something akin to kiss-awesome so users have some place where they can share their repos
<aelspire>
but central repo like community is cool too
<midfavila>
okay so
<sad_plan>
if you look up kisslinux on ddg, or startpage, you mostly get the *official* stuff. on dd I got phoebos' website mirror though
<midfavila>
i just ran a quick test to determine if kiss is actually discoverable
<midfavila>
same thing as sad_plan
<aelspire>
but I don't actually understand - maintainer is some given position?
<midfavila>
i got the official site, the official repo, the subreddit, mcpcpc's page, distrowatch, and then the kiss community wiki and github
<sad_plan>
yeah. finding kiss-community takes abit more effort. however its mentioned alot on the subreddit though, so if you stumble upon that, youre likely to find kiss-commmunity aswell
<aelspire>
or You became maintainer only because You pushed some changes to this package?
<midfavila>
if the prospective new user can't be bothered to scroll halfway down the search results page then kiss probably isn't for htem
<midfavila>
them*
<aelspire>
basically - is there separation between users and maintainers in community repo?
<midfavila>
not really
<sad_plan>
in community, you can take on orphaned packages, or create a pr you wish to include in community
<midfavila>
maintainers are just people who offer to maintain a package. anyone can do it
<midfavila>
no special reqs or anything
<midfavila>
you just kinda do it
<aelspire>
ok cool so It is as good as I imagined
<sad_plan>
only *requirement* is that it should build, and be kept up-to-date. more or less
<aelspire>
someone want package and want to share it and he can be maintainer
<sad_plan>
basically
<sad_plan>
either that, or users just create their own repo instead. which has been quite been done alot, to say the least
<midfavila>
well, lots of stuff people wanna use wouldn't really work in community
<midfavila>
my way of viewing things has always been that what's in core should be enough to build everything in community, although that's not the official ruling afaik
<sad_plan>
right. hence its often easier to just create a separate repo instead.
<midfavila>
s/core/official/
<midfavila>
indeed
<sad_plan>
no not really. theres looooots of things in community that doesnt build with core packages exclusivly
<aelspire>
core should be minimal booting POSIX-compatible system sans kernel
<aelspire>
and it is currently
<midfavila>
idk it's just my take on things
<aelspire>
everything else is for user to choose what they want
<aelspire>
It is how I understand it
<aelspire>
some default kernel config and build script would only cause problems
<aelspire>
in official repo
<aelspire>
without supporting every existing computer and taking days to compile it would be completly worthless
<aelspire>
midfavila: I see that You are sold on keeping X11 alive?
<midfavila>
less sold on it and more resigned to it
<midfavila>
wayland is garbage and MGR is obsolete right now
<schillingklaus>
wayland is useless for me
<midfavila>
until I can beat MGR into working shape again, with or without the help of others, i'm stuck on X
<aelspire>
why? I'm big fan of wayland but not against X11
<midfavila>
wayland is basically linux-only
<midfavila>
before anyone starts screaming about fud
<midfavila>
yes i know there's like
<aelspire>
yes but this is as simple as it can get
<midfavila>
one compositor that runs on fbsd
<midfavila>
and no, it's not
<midfavila>
not even close
<sad_plan>
its getting worked on for bsd anyway, but its slow I suppose
<midfavila>
it's getting worked on for *free* bsd
<midfavila>
and in the process fbsd had to pick up a bunch of linux shit afaik
<sad_plan>
is not freebsd *free*?
<midfavila>
freebsd is free, but freebsd is freebsd, not bsd as a whole
<midfavila>
i'm more concerned about net and open
<sad_plan>
what
<aelspire>
openbsd is quite cool
<schillingklaus>
Velox works on NetBSD
<midfavila>
neither, as far as i'm aware, support or have plans to support wayland, but i'm open to information suggesting otherwise
<midfavila>
schillingklaus: link?
<sad_plan>
github.com/michaelforney/velox
<midfavila>
but anyway, beyond that, wayland isn't interesting to me because while the protocol itself might be simple, the tech stack isn't
<sad_plan>
its the wm used by oasis
<sad_plan>
I though you knew that midfavila
<aelspire>
well, this means nothing really wayland is just protocol
<midfavila>
it means a lot actually
<midfavila>
you look at X, even though it's massive, you can still build most (all?) of it using tcc
<midfavila>
you don't need freetype or harfbuzz or gtk or anything
<aelspire>
adding support wor wayland clients in X11 server is possible, or I'm missing something crucial
<midfavila>
athena and motif are right there and are perfectly serviceable, as are xlib and xcb
<midfavila>
the point isn't about clients
<midfavila>
the point is about the total complexity of the technology that wayland relies on versus X
<midfavila>
...versus MGR
<midfavila>
wayland is wildly complex and because it's "modern" it's built with "modern" systems in mind
<midfavila>
my systems are decidedly not "modern" in any capacity
<schillingklaus>
wayland lacks support for analogies to xsel and xdotool
<midfavila>
xft is just an extension
<aelspire>
almost everything cabable of drawing somewhat modern interface is extension in X
<aelspire>
thats the problem
<midfavila>
not really
<aelspire>
almost
<midfavila>
tiny x supports very few extensions and yet all of the programs i use run just fine
<schillingklaus>
as openbsd has been mentioned... it would be cool to get the xenocara fork of xorg run with musl. It is more secure than the official xorg builds
<midfavila>
yeah, it's something i've been thinking about for a while
<midfavila>
i'm going to need to continue to use a heavier X distribution on my workstation for some time, and X.Org is a mess on its own
<sad_plan>
tinyx still needs freetype though. or am I missing something? I couldve sworn I couldnt build it without freetype
<midfavila>
you're definitely missing something
<aelspire>
there was something else
<aelspire>
but I'm not sure if it is not more bloat
<sad_plan>
I see
<aelspire>
I cannot recall its name
<aelspire>
but it was display server build on similar technology to game engines
<aelspire>
arcan?
<schillingklaus>
tinyx lacks the support for the same thing (xsel, xdotool); it cannot even handle tiling wms
<sad_plan>
nop, I get an error about freetype2 is missing when configuring tinyx