<sad_plan>
yeah, I like that too. but I also like to have a somewhat functional system :p
<sad_plan>
I did have a fully static system once, but I only had lynx or links, and it didnt work for me. I was however thinking about outsourcing some stuff, like oasis does. it provides just the base basics, and users can use pkgsrc for something else instead
<sad_plan>
its abit less ideal though, having 2 package managers :p
<phoebos>
midfavila: have you forked kiss or the fork using your repos instead of repo
<midfavila>
my repos, for now
<midfavila>
in the future i'd like to write a new implementation of kiss
<sad_plan>
cpt is another one. used by carbs linux, if youre not familiar with it already. shares alot of similarities with kiss
<sad_plan>
might be of interest anyway to peak at or something :p
<sad_plan>
does tcc build other c libraries though? if those are of any interest
<midfavila>
it might, but then I have to go through and check every port in my repo
<sad_plan>
yeah, thats not ideal either. its either that, or patch musl/tcc though
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<sad_plan>
midfavila: do you sometimes have issues with kiss not properly checking if a dep of a package is installed before building it? I find this happens alot after I started using s/ubase.
<sad_plan>
I initially had the issue when messing with oasis, and didnt think too much of it, but its reoccuring all the time now if I remove makedeps especially, which Ive been doing from time to time
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<vouivre>
Hi
<vouivre>
testuser[m]: do you use syncthing ?
<testuser[m]>
vouivre: he
<testuser[m]>
Ye
<vouivre>
I maintain syncthing but I don't use it. It would be better if a user of syncthing maintain it.
<vouivre>
As I saw, you updated it. Do you want to maintain it ? But because you already do a lot for kisslinux, perhaps it would be better to find somebody else.
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<aelspire>
I've installed irssi and doing some tests. Default config seems sane but after all this post on net that irssi is the best irc client I'm somewhat underimpressed
<aelspire>
I've installed aerc too and this one seems cool
<testuser[m]>
vouivre: it's fine i can maintain it
<vouivre>
ok, thank you!
<illiliti>
btw, anyone know an irc client that is not TUI?
<illiliti>
irssi, weechat, catgirl, ... - all TUI, all use ncurses
<shokara_>
hexchat? ii?
<shokara_>
netcat and telnet to port 6667 or openssl s_client to 6697 might count too
<illiliti>
ii - forgot about that one
<illiliti>
but i think there should be something even simpler
<illiliti>
something that does not place files to fs and instead provide cli interface similar to ssh, but with multiple channels support
<illiliti>
also hexchat is GUI, no?
<shokara_>
yeah hexchat is GUI but you only asked for something that isn't TUI
<shokara_>
and didn't ask for only CLI
<aelspire>
I'm using thunderbird as IRC client on my PC
<aelspire>
is it counts?
<shokara_>
but I don't know of other GUI clients (except mirc but that's proprietary and I think windows-only) so I stopped with hexchat
<aelspire>
If someone into bloat - polari from GNOME
<illiliti>
GUI for irc client sounds overkill for me
<shokara_>
it probably isn't difficut to write something that you asked for though
<illiliti>
yeah
<aelspire>
I'm personally not big fan of TUI - CLI yes ofc, but instead of TUI gimme GUI
<midfavila>
GUIs aren't intrinsically bloated
<aelspire>
I paid for screen capable of displaying pixels
<midfavila>
in some cases the overhead of a terminal emulator can make something less efficient than it otherwise could be
<illiliti>
i'm not against GUIs
<aelspire>
hacking something looking like GUI from ASCII characters is workaorund IMHO
<illiliti>
if there were a choice between GUI and TUI, i would choose GUI
<illiliti>
cuz TUI is fucked
<illiliti>
broken by design
<aelspire>
but big GUI players are all broken
<aelspire>
QT, GTK
<illiliti>
yep
<shokara_>
then you can use simpler ones like motif and athena
<aelspire>
so I understand people prefering doing TUI apps
<aelspire>
I want GUI *library* not framework trying to wrap every part of th OS
<shokara_>
something like libdrm or libx11?
<shokara_>
or plain fbdev?
<aelspire>
x11 is capable of drawing simple things
<aelspire>
no cairo needed but somewhat everynone defaults to cairo or pixman for X11 drawing
<aelspire>
Wayland is even simpler
<aelspire>
but I think using plain X11 might be too much NIH syndrome
<shokara_>
nih syndrome?
<shokara_>
nvm
<aelspire>
not invented here - when you need to rewrite everything
<shokara_>
yeah that's why I suggested athena and motif
<aelspire>
EFL?
<shokara_>
I thought you were dismissing the two along with qt and gtk when you said "I want GUI *library* not framework"
<shokara_>
I don't know too much about that to comment on it
<aelspire>
last time I checked EFL it was in wierd state. They was trying to make API less confusing but rewrite was half done
<aelspire>
EFL looks like library
<aelspire>
IMHO
<aelspire>
but I didn't looked too deep into it
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<illiliti>
looks like it does too much
<illiliti>
> Main loop event, I/O and timing core
<illiliti>
> Event queue and call handling
<illiliti>
> D-Bus IPC integration
<aelspire>
maybe, I didn't checked too much
<aelspire>
theme engine made me quit
<aelspire>
I'll check rust's iced if I'm already checking rust
<aelspire>
dev's from PopOS want to use it, maybe it is not bad
<illiliti>
men
<illiliti>
popos is bloated af
<aelspire>
I don't know PopOS nor use it
<aelspire>
but positive opinion of it's devs are good starting point
<shokara_>
isn't popos just system76's own ubuntu?
<aelspire>
I can check what they recommend, maybe during this process I'll find something else
<aelspire>
wiki says it's based on Ubuntu
<aelspire>
dnkl is doing cool stuff on wayland with no library nor framework
<aelspire>
I've managed to open window and print some text using zig, c and rust
<aelspire>
basically problem is that let's say You want to epoll on some fds
<aelspire>
but if GUI framework steals event loop
<aelspire>
You usually need to somewhat add this fds to framework's infrastructure
<aelspire>
and I have yet to see something that is less complicated than using epoll directly
<illiliti>
yeah, all event loop libraries are over-engineered
<aelspire>
iced steals main loop and I haven't found any way to add user defined events to it in it's dov
<aelspire>
doc*
<aelspire>
but I've found egui (immediate mode gui in rust)
<aelspire>
imgui (the most popular immediate mode gui lib) is not bad
<aelspire>
but C++
<illiliti>
c++ and bloat-free - sounds contradictory
<aelspire>
yes, but there is always something
<aelspire>
IMHO C++ has some good point, but the language is too haphazardly designed and extremly bloated
<aelspire>
fun fact: C++ creator see the problem and trying to convince the rest that things are gone too far
<aelspire>
"Many/most people in WG21 are working independently towards non-shared goals. Individually,
<aelspire>
many (most?) proposals make sense. Together they are insanity"
<illiliti>
that's what happens when language does not slow things down
<illiliti>
bloat is inevitable if language is constantly evolving
<aelspire>
yes, exactly
<illiliti>
why rust fans fail to understand that
<aelspire>
but C has some flaws, but adding all things together it's easier to work around C flaws than understand messy C++ codebase
<aelspire>
rust is not yet that bad, I don't have opinion on it yet (in progress of checking things)
<aelspire>
but: std is super small
<aelspire>
and most rfcs looks like they are actually removing limitations of existing features than adding new
<aelspire>
but I can be wrong
<aelspire>
but its fanbase is pretty bad in their evangelicism
<aelspire>
zig looks nicer but I failed to bootstrap current version of its compiler on KISS
<aelspire>
so I'm putting it on hold until it matures a little bit so I can give it a real chance to shine and chacking rust in meantime
<illiliti>
i'll persist that zig needs minizig version that only provides compiler and std
<illiliti>
i don't need cross-compilation, incremental linking, cc/cxx replacement, build system and goddamn package manager(i know it does not exist yet, but they are considering it)
<illiliti>
these should be optional
<illiliti>
it is clearly over-engineering imho
<aelspire>
I've heard that they want decentralized package manager
<aelspire>
this can be interesting idea
<aelspire>
but yes, cc/cxx replacement seems unnecessary
<aelspire>
but I could tolerate little bit of bloat if in broader view of things design is great, actually I could even tolerate the bloat of rust
<aelspire>
endgame is producing nice minimal machine code of Your app while keeping code readable even on bigger scale
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<illiliti>
check hare
<aelspire>
I've checked hare
<aelspire>
lack of generics is copying C's flaws
<aelspire>
casting to void* to simulate generics removes type checking
<illiliti>
dunno why you think that the lack of generics is flaw
<illiliti>
it's a matter of program design
<illiliti>
ofc there will be corner cases, but they are only corner
<aelspire>
I'm used to it too much. I'm mainly C++ programmer at job
<illiliti>
aah, you used to it
<aelspire>
generics are nice and helps defining interfaces without removint type checking
<aelspire>
but as every kind of metaprogramming overusing it is counterproductive
<aelspire>
At the beggining I've liked to flex my skills in writting obfuscated code by using every possible C++ feature
<aelspire>
but today I prefer writting code that I'll understand next month too
<aelspire>
rust is very nice here, it has super-strongly-typed generics so it's perfect C++ replacement for me. And I could probably convince people at work to use rust so next big plus.
<aelspire>
I like zig design better, but seriously: it is more like C replacement and I'm not in dire need of replacing C
<aelspire>
C is good, when I expect program to not to grow over few tousands lines of code I choose C
<aelspire>
generics usually didn't matter in such small codebase and all C flaws are perfectly managable at this scale
<aelspire>
thinks shit itselves when people want everything and the fountain in their app and I basically need to implement all things they want
<illiliti>
that happens when app does not have scope
<illiliti>
perhaps your app has flawed design and needs fixing
<aelspire>
the main problem is that original specification is around 10% size of final one usually
<aelspire>
the only design that works with such mess is make everything as generic as possible
<aelspire>
or rewrite it from scratch on every iteration
<aelspire>
I belive in "no silver bullet" motto
<aelspire>
programming languages are just tools
<aelspire>
some of them fit some domain better or worse
<aelspire>
trying to use C eveythere is counterproductive IMHO