<aelspire>
so there is always rewrite of rewrite or reimplementation but in language X
<aelspire>
the rewrites but in other languages are super stupid IMHO
<midfavila>
wael[m] competition is a good thing
<midfavila>
ultimately you could argue that GNU and BSD are working towards the same goal, to liberate computer users
<aelspire>
if they have some better implementation or better desing - it's ok
<midfavila>
but their different approaches are a result of different interpretations of that ideal
<aelspire>
but rewrite for the sake of language hange?
<midfavila>
well, i think that also depends
<midfavila>
for example
<midfavila>
i would, if I had the {skill, knowledge, need, ...} rewrite any computational libraries I needed in scheme instead of C or C++ or something because I'm of the opinion that scheme is better suited for such a task
<midfavila>
you also avoid many of C's footguns, which can be important for highly complex tasks
<aelspire>
well thats valid point
<midfavila>
rewriting it in another language as a fad is bad, but rewriting things in other languages because those languages are perhaps legitimately better suited to the task is perfectly valid
<aelspire>
but if code is battle testes and works well?
<midfavila>
i don't particularly care if something is quote, "battle-tested", un-quote, if it's unreadable
<aelspire>
C has some flaws but for smaller utils net sum is positive of using C
<midfavila>
programs should be written for others first, yourself second, and the machine last
<schillingklaus>
just don't use Rust, the downfall of linux
<aelspire>
yup
<midfavila>
also, C is only efficient because it's the native language of most operating systems in use today
<aelspire>
why? I'm starting to like rust more and more
<midfavila>
many other languages can be competitive with it in the right environment
<aelspire>
it's far from bad language but I'm still in progress of checking it
<midfavila>
for example, FORTRAN, Pascal, FORTH, LISP, and so on
<schillingklaus>
Rust has trademark problems and a fascist cental committee
<midfavila>
even BASIC can compete with C
<midfavila>
>uses the name schillingklaus
<midfavila>
>complains about fascist central committee
<midfavila>
kind of ironic ngl
<aelspire>
rust has some strong points and inclusion in linux is big one
<aelspire>
that was the point when I decided to try rust
<aelspire>
if it is in linux and firefox
<midfavila>
the problem with rust isn't the language itself
<midfavila>
it's the infrastructure
<aelspire>
this is now one the basic tools one expect to have installed
<midfavila>
everything orthogonal to the language itself is what's wrong with rust
<midfavila>
although i've heard the language itself is even harder to read than C++ once you strip away sugar
<midfavila>
anyway, rust for things like a userland, or a browser, or whatever, is fine
<midfavila>
my real problem is when projects written in C start depending on libraries written in Rust
<aelspire>
I look on this problem from other perspective
<aelspire>
as I'm still checking things with rust
<aelspire>
why more and more things depends on rust?
<aelspire>
maybe it's not bad?
<midfavila>
a million people aren't necessarily any more correct than one
<aelspire>
so I'm checking it as I want to replace C++ in my toolset
<aelspire>
and Rust looks like replacement of C++
<schillingklaus>
most of these millions do not know what they are running
<aelspire>
I'm not in need of replacing C
<midfavila>
one of my main problems with rust is that it seems to promote tools over methods
<aelspire>
so Zig works a little worse here
<midfavila>
"just have the compiler handle all your memory problems" doesn't fix the underlying problem, which is poor method
<midfavila>
not that people can be blamed for screwing up, but that's why the idea of moving fast and breaking things needs to be scrapped
<aelspire>
thats cultural problem
<aelspire>
I'm pragmatist but hate this
<midfavila>
yes, and culture is for better or worse massively important in the real world
<aelspire>
this and fact that computers which are more powerful than I ever deamed of works so slow
<midfavila>
rust doesn't help that
<aelspire>
but this is problem of layers and layers of abstraction on everything
<aelspire>
rust is compiled language on par of C and C++ with performance
<aelspire>
of -> with
<midfavila>
in order to achieve that, do you not need to remove a lot of the checks rust's runtime does?
<aelspire>
first step is literal transcription of C into Rust
<midfavila>
i'll read it later perhaps
<midfavila>
if it turns out unsafe rust and safe rust tend towards equivalent performance, then i'll retract that statement i made
<aelspire>
rust makes all of this things compile time
<aelspire>
so It checks for this during compilation
<aelspire>
for most of things
<aelspire>
final machine code is mostly the same like C sans panic strings that are currently worked on
<aelspire>
to remove them when they are not necessary
* midfavila
shrugs
<aelspire>
and from what I see evolution of this language looks sane for now
<midfavila>
so maybe performance isn't a problem, but then there's also the lack of portability
<aelspire>
as thinks looks like there is a lot of rfcs
<midfavila>
last I saw it still only ran on x86(64), ARM, and RISC-V
<aelspire>
but most of them are removing limitation of existing features and not adding new ones
<aelspire>
that the problem of LLVM backend
<aelspire>
but now rust in gcc is worked on
<aelspire>
I'm not sure yet if I like rust
<aelspire>
I'm in progress of checking it
<aelspire>
so take it with the grain of salf
<midfavila>
if a rust gcc frontend can be added then maybe that'll fix the portability problem
<aelspire>
but things don't look bad at all
<midfavila>
but the question is if people will be write compliant code... is there a spec for the language right now?
<midfavila>
or is it still "implementation is spec"?
<aelspire>
I don't know
<aelspire>
if they are working on rust in gcc there should be spec?
<aelspire>
I'm not sure
<midfavila>
i'll take rust seriously when it's portable to embedded systems, has a proper spec, and there's more than one implementation that actually works
<midfavila>
and you'd think, which is why I asked
<midfavila>
but idk
<midfavila>
i have a very low opinion of the rust community at large, justified or not
<aelspire>
I've compiled toy program for STM32F4 but this is ARM so nothing exotic
<aelspire>
for such systems replacing C might be much more problematic
<midfavila>
and that's the only area that really matters as far as i'm concerned
<aelspire>
as C is super simple do C compiler will be first one ported on new archs
<midfavila>
the idea that having a memory safe browser is important is laughable to me
<midfavila>
or, you know, other desktop programs
<midfavila>
desktops don't need to be high reliability, although it's nice if they are
<midfavila>
the worst that happens in a poorly-written program on a desktop (or even a server that focuses on serving "consumer" services) is a segfault or an OOB memory access
<midfavila>
serious problems, to be sure
<midfavila>
but like
<midfavila>
society still runs on fuckin
<midfavila>
emulated IBM mainframes and z80s
<aelspire>
the idea that browser can be serious attack vector shows that things gone too far
<aelspire>
and it doesn't stop
<aelspire>
WebGL, WebASM, WebXR
<midfavila>
mfw i run links
<aelspire>
like, guys, really?
<midfavila>
mfw i don't have any of the problems that firefox or chrome users do
<aelspire>
but the point is - I don't belive that there is "silver bullet" programming language
<aelspire>
they are just tools
<aelspire>
some fit one problem better some worse
<aelspire>
midfavila: what pushed You into ed - like editors?
<midfavila>
simple to learn and use
<midfavila>
and i can use ed for hours without risking RSI
<aelspire>
simple - yes
<midfavila>
emacs pinky in contrast is an actual thing
<aelspire>
but not seeing more text on screen all of the time seems hard for me
<midfavila>
plus, the ed command set is pretty generic across unix tools
<midfavila>
and yeah ed kinda falls flat when it comes to extremes
<aelspire>
You are literally the first person I ever heard of that uses ed and likes it
<midfavila>
:p
<midfavila>
if you want a "better" ed, look at 'se'
<midfavila>
literally just ed with a GUI and *very* basic line editing
<wael[m]>
simple ed
<midfavila>
screen editor actually
<aelspire>
well, ed is not my thing
<wael[m]>
sed
<aelspire>
well sed is important tool
<midfavila>
i only mention se because it shows you the region you're currently editing
<midfavila>
graphically i mean
<aelspire>
but I currently like kakoune
<midfavila>
vanilla ed does fall flat when it comes to extremes
<aelspire>
using shell in editor is super powerfull
<midfavila>
it's difficult and tedious to, for example, make single character changes, compared to *any* other editor i've used
<aelspire>
I've heard that acme does it too
<midfavila>
because you just *can't* address single characters
<midfavila>
it's just not possible. you need to use a regular expression with the substitute command to make edits
<midfavila>
and because ed doesn't display a region of text at a time, it's difficult to jump around in a file like you can with emacs
<midfavila>
(se fails to solve the latter because of erroneous implementation)
<aelspire>
pretty interesting
<midfavila>
(it does, however, solve the former thanks to its rudimentary line editing capabilities)
<midfavila>
indeed
<aelspire>
have You tried to use ed as intended on real paper?
<midfavila>
if i could connect my dot matrix to my PC i would probably have experience with that
<midfavila>
alas I don't have a SuperIO card right now
<midfavila>
also fwiw you don't need to capitalize "you"
<aelspire>
this is custom in my country, little forgotten one
<aelspire>
but ok
<aelspire>
this is not polite form in english?
<midfavila>
fair enough
<midfavila>
it's just not grammatically correct, is all
<aelspire>
AFAIK in german there is something similar too
<midfavila>
you only need to capitalize things that are at the start of a sentence, proper nouns, or acronyms
<midfavila>
at least if i'm remembering my grammar classes from like third grade or whatever correctly
<aelspire>
ok, thanks for clarification
<midfavila>
(of course i don't exactly write properly either, so it's not a big deal :p)
<midfavila>
mhm
<aelspire>
who is "Owen Rafferty
<midfavila>
no clue
<wael[m]>
he is the magical ioraff
<aelspire>
guy works really hard on KISS
<wael[m]>
🍔
<aelspire>
well, whoever you are thanks a lot for maintaining KISS linux, and other maintainers too
<wael[m]>
thank ioraff, testuser, illilti, jedahan, armaanB, dilyn, kiedtl, ehawkvu, and among others
<aelspire>
there are many people I need to thank, but lets say that "KISS Linux/Community maintainers" will cover most of them
<aelspire>
I've just read mails from arch-devs
<aelspire>
And they are grilling some poor soul for sugesting init diversity
<aelspire>
at such times I'm realy grateful for distros without systemd which still exists
<aelspire>
diversity was always the OSS greatest strength and weakness at the same time
<aelspire>
but now suggesting something something as basic as supporting something other than systemd is taken as great offence
<wael[m]>
where did that hpapen
<aelspire>
on arch dev mailing list
<aelspire>
I'm lurking here to be prepared for incoming changes
<aelspire>
I've checked authors in repo and community
<aelspire>
KISS might has bigger team than void
<wael[m]>
no
<wael[m]>
void is very very huge
<wael[m]>
thats why maintainers are quite shitty to deal with
<aelspire>
why shitty?
<aelspire>
I've checked void and alpine and both system showed helped me learn cool things. alpine - muslc and void - runit and other deamontools compatible tools
<aelspire>
I'm running alpine on my server and purged void to install KISS on my laptop
<aelspire>
but the problem with void was its build system
<aelspire>
I wanted OS which I can play with and xbps-src was pretty cumbersome to use
<aelspire>
as it requires cloning main repo and merging your changes into it to build custom packages
<aelspire>
and gcc was pretty old together with llvm
<aelspire>
but I haven't heard of shitty maintainers except of founder
<wael[m]>
i said maintainers
<wael[m]>
the distro itself is fine
<aelspire>
and I'm asking about maintainers, too
<aelspire>
it was pretty bad, I've seen how things went on llvm update
<aelspire>
but I'm not sure who is the bad one
<aelspire>
demanding user coming and throwing shit everywhere can make people short tempered
<aelspire>
midfavila: apropos segfaults
<aelspire>
Thread 15 "lagrange" received signal SIGSEGV, Segmentation fault. 0x00007ffff7fb75e9 in pthread_setname_np () from /lib/ld-musl-x86_64.so.1
<aelspire>
it couldn't find better time to crash :P
<aelspire>
I'll need buid this in debug mode when I find motivation and time for it
<wael[m]>
whats a aproporsprosropsrsrpaiedsagsduy
<wael[m]>
whats a apropos
<aelspire>
wael: man apropos
<wael[m]>
/bin/sh: man: not found
<aelspire>
linux without man pages?
<aelspire>
pretty extreme
<aelspire>
well apropos - Fitting and to the point. synonym: relevant.