acheam changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | https://kisscommunity.bvnf.space | post logs or else | song of the day https://vid.puffyan.us/HL_3D4b3UZM
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<midfavila> anyone get docbook set up?
<midfavila> need it to build Xaw's documentation (because ofc)
<phoebos> midfavila: it's compiled to various stuff at https://x.org/releases/X11R7.7/doc/libXaw/
<midfavila> erm, maybe i'm missing something, but they only seem to have the XML source and the libXaw paper
<midfavila> could probably pull docs out of an old Xaw release actually...
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<phoebos> what docs did you want
<midfavila> those, but in, you know, roff format
<midfavila> as far as I'm aware docbook exists to translate from XML-based documentation to other formats
<phoebos> similar to roff
<phoebos> good luck :p
<phoebos> i don't think that documentation is good enough to be worth reading like manpages
<midfavila> maybe
<midfavila> just sucks that I'm gonna have to page through the Athena paper every time I want a preview of something
<midfavila> could always cut stuff out from that, too...
<phoebos> it's a bit of a PITA
<phoebos> for example, a note to self: XawTextReplace()'s widget needs to be the parent of the textSource, not the source itself. Otherwise it just segfaults.
<phoebos> not documented in the paper or in the source code
<phoebos> that i could find
<midfavila> hrm
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<midfavila> working on a twm package rn, it's pretty comfy
<midfavila> could see myself dailying it
<noocsharp> anyone know what in firefox requires perl to build?
<testuser[m]12> nss has 2 scripts and 5-6 more. In others
<testuser[m]12> Shouldn't be hard to get rid of
<testuser[m]12> Ho
<testuser[m]12> Hi
<noocsharp> hi
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<lylac> hi o/
<lylac> anyone have CPU usage issues with Firefox? its reporting the networking task to be using significant CPU power, as in 10-13% of a 5950x significant
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<noocsharp> testuser[m]12: do you know how to detect when perl is run as part of the build?
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<midfavila> greetings, fellow children of the lamb
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<testuser[m]12> noocsharp: wdym detect
<testuser[m]12> Like dynamically or what
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<vouivre> Hi
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<vouivre> testuser[m]12: are you online ?
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<testuser[m]12> vouivre: no
<vouivre> ok, I had a look about libgphoto2, I'll make a comment in the issue "Outdated packages"
<testuser[m]12> non dbus notifications for ayyland?
<wael[m]> (herbe wayland alternative here)
<vouivre> wael[m]: what is the alternative ?
<wael[m]> *just imagine it
<vouivre> ?????
<vouivre> you mean there is no alternative ?
<wael[m]> there maybe is idk
<wael[m]> @testuser :, why do you need dbus-less notifications?
<testuser[m]12> i need
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<vouivre> wayland alternative
<wael[m]> Bloody knew it
<testuser[m]12> its unmaintained
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<vouivre> on my system it works
<vouivre> that's right, that's not perfect
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<illiliti> framework for device manager sounds like a nice idea but hard to get right
<illiliti> because framework implies that device manager need to fork/exec scripts. that's where things get out of control
<illiliti> fork/exec has cost and can easily fork-bomb your system
<illiliti> that's why people abandoned legacy /proc hotplugger
<illiliti> and switched to udev which doesn't have a problem of this magnitude
<illiliti> but udev has other problems
<illiliti> it has fucking goto in its rules!
<illiliti> i very often see bug reports where people report that udev consumes all cpu due to some dumb rule which uses goto
<illiliti> ok, back to the topic
<illiliti> if you have idea how to avoid fork/exec while still keeping modularity, let me know
<testuser[m]12> what about multiple mdev.conf's
<illiliti> mdevd author against this idea
<illiliti> if you meant /etc/mdev.d/*.conf
<testuser[m]12> yeah
<testuser[m]12> why
<illiliti> he says it's already possible via wrapper
<testuser[m]12> what wrapper
<testuser[m]12> example
<illiliti> one could combine all configs into one and pass to mdevd
<illiliti> to implement this wrapper is needed which is meh
<illiliti> i don't like wrappers
<testuser[m]12> isnt it less effort than framework
<illiliti> wdym?
<testuser[m]12> pkgs can just install one liners to /etc/mdev.conf.d or whatever
<illiliti> yeah
<illiliti> we can agree that mdev config is a standard
<illiliti> instead of implementing full-blown framework
* illiliti thinking about freebsd devd config
<illiliti> but, the point of framework is modularity and hardcoding some specific format defeats it..
<illiliti> look at kiss's build files
<illiliti> you can write them in python btw if you like
<illiliti> because kiss doesn't hardcode specific format, i.e shell
<testuser[m]12> hmm
<illiliti> how we can achieve that without fork/exec?
<illiliti> it's impossible i think
<testuser[m]12> but we would have to implement support for generic framework in every device managerrrr
<testuser[m]12> manager
<illiliti> perhaps
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<illiliti> i think the best option is to agree that mdev config is a standard and implement wrappers for mdev/mdevd to support .d
<testuser[m]12> yewah
<illiliti> we have to accept tradeoffs if we are going to implement framework
<testuser[m]12> what impl other than eudev and mdev exists anyway
<illiliti> considering how easy is to implement device manager, there are quite a lot
<illiliti> oasis hotplugd
<illiliti> ndev by TAAPArthur
<illiliti> smdev
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<illiliti> people at alpine thinking how to translate udev rules to mdev configs
<illiliti> it's pretty hard to do because udev has goto
<illiliti> fuck, who decided to put goto into it
<illiliti> the all thing looks like an intentional vendor lock
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<illiliti> "distro-agnostic"
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<testuser[m]12> } elsif (($predefined_C{__GNUC__} // -1) >= 3
<testuser[m]12> && !($predefined_C{__APPLE_CC__} && !$predefined_C{__clang__})) {
<testuser[m]12> wtf is this language
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<wael[m]> gnu
<illiliti> ruby?
<testuser[m]12> perl
<illiliti> where is use strict; then? xd
<testuser[m]12> why isnt make setting $RANLIB
<illiliti> why would it
<illiliti> ranlib is deprecated
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<testuser[m]12> illiliti: $(AR) s $file is equivalent?
<illiliti> yep
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<wael[m]> testuser: whats that for?
<testuser[m]12> pregenerating files that require perl
<wael[m]> wait is perl just not liked here or something
<illiliti> reducing the amount of crap needed to have usable system is the main goal of kiss
<illiliti> perl is not an exception
<illiliti> as well as python
<illiliti> and everything else which deemed to be unnecessary
<illiliti> nice
<wael[m]> but what if another program i use needs it
<wael[m]> would tha make it an exception
<illiliti> no
<illiliti> package it locally or to community repo
<illiliti> main repo has bare minimum to have usable system
<midfavila> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
<midfavila> i bet you could bootstrap gcc with tcc
<midfavila> maybe kiss should switch :^)
<illiliti> if cproc can bootstrap gcc, then no doubt tcc can as well
<illiliti> gcc 4 to be exact
<illiliti> compiling everything with tcc would be amazing, but we are not in ideal world sadly
<illiliti> crapware such as firefox and chromium makes it impossible
* midfavila laughs in Links2
<illiliti> meh
<illiliti> i did use links before
<illiliti> it was pita
<testuser[m]12> netsurf
<sad_plan> cant even get netsurf to build on my on laptop
<illiliti> when i retire, i'll spent my time working on a sane browser till last day
<midfavila> netsurf is *actually* garbage
<midfavila> i mean, i appreciate that they have a teeny development team and all
<sad_plan> how so?
<midfavila> it literally just doesn't work
<midfavila> like, it doesn't render ISO15445 HTML properly
<sad_plan> hm
<wael[m]> sad_plan: have you gotten toybox init/mdev/otherstuff working? im currently getting toybox to replace busybox in my system
<illiliti> toybox mdev is incomplete afaik
<sad_plan> never tried toybox mdev. but no on init. I was going to ask dilyn, be he's not here as often. other stuff, for the most part, yes
<illiliti> > Some man page symlinks rely on perl
<illiliti> testuser[m]12: what does it mean? do i still need perl installed?
<testuser[m]12> illiliti: no
<testuser[m]12> Symlinks require perl so we just don't make them
<testuser[m]12> They rely on parsing man page
<testuser[m]12> there's thousands of them though
<sad_plan> wael[m]: I have an issue about it on my repo, explaining some of the ..crufts on some of toyboxes utilities.
<sad_plan> its by no means complete im sure, but it atleast explains some of the wierdness you might encounted when switching to toybox
<wael[m]> mfw toybox adds features i really want in busybox but breaks everything else
<wael[m]> ill look at busybox config and hope it has the features i need
<sad_plan> lol. what feature might that be? I find toybox to be way less complete, and lack features one would find elsewhere
<wael[m]> well for 1, ps -k/--sort sort
<wael[m]> i have psutils or whatever it was just for this specific flag
<sad_plan> hm
<midfavila> >he uses non-POSIX extensions
<midfavila> reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
<sad_plan> oh noo
<wael[m]> if busybox has chattr, then chattr as well
<sad_plan> run midfavila
<wael[m]> xxd, iotop
<wael[m]> i believe toybox has a dhcp client so, dhcpd
<midfavila> xxd isn't even standard on unix
<midfavila> but you can get it separately
<wael[m]> s/toybox/busybox
<midfavila> it's got its own package under community i think
<sad_plan> I belive there is some dhcp in toybox, but I dont belive its done. the busybox one doesn work properly either iirc
<wael[m]> i will convert you to non-POSIX
<wael[m]> run for your life muhahahha
<midfavila> i'll kill you in minecraft
<midfavila> swear to god
<midfavila> if I see one more non-posix part of your userland i'm hiring a bitcoin assassin
<sad_plan> iirc sabotage linux has some scripts to use with busybox's builtin dhcp client, but ive never gotten it to work. not that Ive taken a whole lot of time on it though
<wael[m]> i use non-posix stuff for my own stuff
<sad_plan> > bitcoin-assassin
<wael[m]> pvp me
<wael[m]> whats the server
<midfavila> lmao why would I pvp you personally, I might lose that way
<midfavila> much better to get my legions of assassins to pvp you
<wael[m]> i just like convenience in my stuff!! i try to go POSIX on stuff i believe others would look at
<midfavila> posix isn't even that inconvenient tho
<wael[m]> yes
<wael[m]> do it
<wael[m]> just certain flags
<midfavila> do any of you know of a decent standalone cpp?
<illiliti> i'm interested too
<midfavila> alternatively, hrm
<midfavila> it'd be neat if you could implement a cpp on top of m4
<midfavila> oop, thanks noocsharp
<midfavila> quick search didn't pull anything up other than SO questions
<noocsharp> never used it, but there was a discussion in #oasis about c preprocessors yesterday
<midfavila> hmm
<midfavila> well, it looks like it'd implement everything necessary for tcc
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<testuser[m]12> Has anyone gotten iwd or anything that isn't wpa supplicant (with -Dwext) to work with r8188eu?
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<testuser[m]12> does anyone know the rationale for bundling libepoxy in gtk and nss/nspr in firefox
<testuser[m]12> Making nss nspr seperate can save 5 mins in firefox build, and libepoxy is required by other stuff sometimes like chromium if building with pipewire support
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<sad_plan> isnt the general rule of if something is needed elsewhere, dont bundle it?
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<ioraff> testuser[m]12: probably just because dylan wanted less packages. I'm definitely in favor of separating nss, nspr, and libepoxy. libretls, too, for that matter.
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