acheam changed the topic of #kisslinux to: Unnofficial KISS Linux community channel | | post logs or else | song of the day
<wael[m]> its in the main repositories right?
<wael[m]> for me its in kiss-xorg and grepo
<virutalmachineus> is there a openbsd kiss edition?
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<wael[m]> i believe someone has tried it with bsd
<wael[m]> not sure which one of the bsds
<wael[m]> but i believe the openbsd package manager is sufficient
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<dilyn> rohan: gdk-pixbuf is in repo/extra
<dilyn> virutalmachineus: as stated before, a BSD KISS has been tried several times, but they all ended unsuccessful (for a variety of reasons)
<dilyn> I've been out of the loop for too long in this community and for that I apologize
<dilyn> I can point the URL to phoebos' site I suppose; that begs the question of how we would want to maintain an ML
<dilyn> I'd also love to just entirely drop github outside of *as a mirror* and do PRs strictly via format-patch/am...
<dilyn> given dylan is gone for... who knows how long, I think we can take more liberties as a community. the Org has matured enough at this point (along with some fresh blood) that I think we can make something better and bigger of this
<dilyn> i'd also like to see the server I'm paying for be used more...;)
<wael[m]> the what
<wael[m]> what is the server
<dilyn> ah
<dilyn> I have a linode server which previously hosted the community's mailing list
<dilyn> it also hosts the git and fossil mirrors for the community repository
<dilyn> (they haven't been updated in a while because I've been gone and I'm the only one with access)
<wael[m]> I really don't know how got servers like this would work
<wael[m]> I'm used to things such as PRs and issues being prominent
<ioraff> sourcehut would be nice if it had orgs. that would also handle the mailing list
<dilyn> :)
<wael[m]> how would someone even upload a package
<dilyn> patches are pretty easy; you make a commit and do a git format-patch
<dilyn> you can use git send-mail as well, and maintainers would use git am to apply the patch
<wael[m]> hmm interesting
<dilyn> yeah
<wael[m]> well the only way you can get most kiss users to go to it is to mirror the current kiss community repo
<dilyn> basically github is gross; we have to rebase/squash every PR because github injects gross merge commits for every PR if you don't do a rebase :|
<dilyn> git am avoids that
<dilyn> afaik even when I was maintaining kiss fewer than ten people were using this mirror of community or the mirror of the main repo
<wael[m]> well it's last update was in 5-31
<wael[m]> that's pretty old
<dilyn> that's about in line with the time I stopped maintaining community and ioraff stepped in:)
<dilyn> but they don't have access to the server
<wael[m]> how does someone gain permission to commit
<dilyn> currently we don't have any rules or infra for that
<dilyn> I never implemented it, though it was on the roadmap
<dilyn> then dylan returned and I swiftly abandoned my post... and now here we are
<wael[m]> well since Dylan uses github why can't we stay at thay
<wael[m]> s/that/that
<dilyn> that was the argument I made before
<dilyn> but given the volatility of dylan's presence, I think that now gives us license to do whatever we want
<dilyn> the overwhelming support last time was to completely abandon github (shithub, as they called it...) in favor of a self-hosted thing
<dilyn> I'd favor simply not supporting GitHub PRs and only supporting ML patches this time around
<wael[m]> why not something like codeberg? Its similar to how github functions
<dilyn> i liken codeberg to gitlab
<dilyn> in that I don't like that
<dilyn> them*
<wael[m]> why not
<dilyn> well, codeberg has always been slow for me
<dilyn> neither are as intuitive or as simple as I would like (I hate navigating freedesktop projects, for instance)
<dilyn> this is a personal disdain, but this is my position
<wael[m]> hmm
<wael[m]> well switching to old style git is gonna take time to get used to
<dilyn> maybe, but I think a large contingent of users have refused to contribute because the primary/only way has almost entirely been through github
<illiliti> dilyn: you can merge PRs in cli to avoid merge commits. it works without rebasing if PR branch isn't diverged from master(i.e fast-forward merge)
<dilyn> that's true
<dilyn> but nobody is doing that and git am is easier far easier for our use-case
<wael[m]> I have only contributed via github and world-write suckless repositories
<dilyn> ah yes those...
<dilyn> hm
<dilyn> I suppose I would need ioraff: phoebos: and others to chime in
<wael[m]> since KISS is so small I believe that world read write repositories could work
<dilyn> yeah. at this point I am far more interested in community feedback than I was before.
<dilyn> Before I wanted to maintain continuity in the hopes that it wouldn't be too jarring when Dylan returned. But now, I'm not in charge. and I think we can have far more liberty in our direction this time around
<dilyn> essentially we've become a steering committee
<wael[m]> what would the kiss community do once Dylan returns?
<ioraff> I'm in favor of ML-only development. it'd disentangle the distro from any particular hosting platform
<wael[m]> what is ML-only?
<ioraff> mailing-list-only
<dilyn> I think at this point we should accept that our direction for the main repositories is incongruous to Dylan's work, and KISS-Community is now it's own thing with its own rules, obligations, and decisions
<dilyn> ^
<dilyn> Constantly trying to emulate Dylan was a virtuous goal in the past but I think it's only going to limit us -- ideally, I think, KISS-Community will follow the general intention of the community. at least broadly speaking
<dilyn> ofc, given that the maintainers are opinionated, the Org will be opinionated, and I think ML-only is an excellent example of that stance
<wael[m]> I have no idea how a mailing list works tbh, it feels a bit old
<dilyn> it's certainly old, but it's tried and true
<dilyn> and well-supported and established
<dilyn> our ML worked quite well after I worked out most of the kinks
<dilyn> probably still a bug or two
<dilyn> this is how the ML worked if you'd like to see
<wael[m]> ahhh my eyes it burns
<wael[m]> why not have the sites in the same style as kiss in theming
<ioraff> the kiss site changed theme about 87 times
<dilyn> because I have opinions about design
<wael[m]> I kinda expected it to be dark like
<ioraff> that's dependent on your browser
<dilyn> I didn't like the dark site (I don't like dark themes in general)
<dilyn> tbf I don't like the new site either :v
<wael[m]> interesting..
<wael[m]> well least that can be done is check browser dark theme preference
<dilyn> i support adding some sort of CSS to make that an option or w/e
<ioraff> while we're on the subject, the quote that used to be on the site, "a camel is a horse designed by a committee", is incredibly stupid
<wael[m]> I find that sentence hard to understand at first glance, what is it supposed to mean
<dilyn> I think it's a brilliant idiom
<dilyn> it's like too many cooks in the kitchen
<wael[m]> I still find it hard to understand
<dilyn> a committee would never be able to decide on the design of a horse and you'd eventually end up with some horrific Cronenberg of a horse
<dilyn> feature creep, design creep, overscoped...
<wael[m]> hm
<dilyn> basically it's a quote that encourages a BDFL, someone who has veto authority
<ioraff> I get what it's trying to say, but the analogy is just wrong. a horse is prettier, sure, but a camel is stronger and can survive in much harsher conditions.
<dilyn> the point is that the committee tried to design a horse and arrived at a camel
<dilyn> Ultimately I would move that we actually rigorously define the KISS-Community org, much like I wanted to do 20 months ago:)
<dilyn> I would like some actual infrastructure and rules surrounding our org to make things easier. that way it isn't just me, or git-bruh, or ioraff, or whomever, reviewing and accepting PRs and making changes
<dilyn> rules for who's in charge of what, who access to what, what needs review and what doesn't, bla bla bla
<wael[m]> why not have multiple people in charge
<dilyn> that's the goal
<wael[m]> this is community after all so
<dilyn> I don't want to be in charge lmfao
<wael[m]> bro you are literally a Dylan typo
<dilyn> :P
<dilyn> there was speculation that I was secretly dylan
<wael[m]> the British looking guy in your github profile is your right
<dilyn> do I look british?!
<dilyn> that's the nicest, meanest thing anyone has ever said about me
<wael[m]> you look like you operate for a British radio station who makes funny jokes
<dilyn> man that would be the dream
<dilyn> instead i'm just some bloke who lives on that strange border between new england and the midwest:'(
<wael[m]> so you are British haha
<dilyn> if only
<ioraff> pennsylvania?
<dilyn> pittsburgh PA!
<dilyn> you're a genius
<wael[m]> wowie
<ioraff> I mean the only two options were PA and OH. or ontario I guess
<ioraff> I'd like to visit pittsburgh sooner than later
<dilyn> ohio is absolutely in the midwest
<dilyn> I'll die on this hill
<dilyn> pgh is chill. if you find yourself here lmk and we can get a drink:P
<dilyn> i'm trapped here for a year or two yet
<ioraff> fair enough. and will do
<wael[m]> kiss linux convention - at a random bar
<ioraff> sounds about right
<dilyn> goals
<wael[m]> ~~also holds 80% of the total kiss linux userbase~~
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<virutalmachineus> is kiss going to be for the niche user or there's going to be iso disks?
<wael[m]> there are isos available
<wael[m]> not officially however
<virutalmachineus> yeah i saw, i mean a full installer
<wael[m]> well in kiss I don't think you need an installer
<wael[m]> look at mkrootfs
<wael[m]> would be fun to try to make tho not sure how
<dilyn> there was an initiative to create a KISS installer ISO a few years back from eudaldgr
<dilyn> I tried to make a KISS-kde installer iso leveraging their project but I didn't quite have the time or energy for it
<wael[m]> kiss-live, I didn't know it had an installer
<virutalmachineus> tails-kiss-live edition with browser only would be cool
<wael[m]> what
<wael[m]> wdym
<wael[m]> wouldn't tails in its own be good enough?
<virutalmachineus> sure
<virutalmachineus> but it's bloated
<virutalmachineus> i'm working on a whonix kiss editon, it's a fun project
<wael[m]> whonix?
<wael[m]> mm yes virtualization
<phoebos> I'm also definitely in favour of ML-only, it is relatively *simple* and more accessible
<testuser[m]12> Hi
<phoebos> o/
<ioraff> hi
<phoebos> also the mlmmj logo made me happy
<testuser[m]12> I was thinking of automating package updates
<testuser[m]12> A shithub action that will update and try to build the package and report any failure
<testuser[m]12> And you get a free binary repo with that
<testuser[m]12> Like this
<illiliti> we don't have binary repositories. we would have to either rebuild deps for each package on each update or store binaries somewhere
<illiliti> it's also impossible to build bloated packages with github actions, such as rust, llvm, firefox...
<illiliti> ci would simply die
<phoebos> at our scale it would be more efficient to build binary packages on an actual computer, so that not everything has to be downloaded and set up for each package
<phoebos> but there could still be a gh mirror for testuser[m]12 to play with
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<testuser[m]12> I've seen people build chromium on it lol
<testuser[m]12> Ill store bins on my server, sha256 will be from ci
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<testuser[m]12> It's temporary
<illiliti> GitHub will remove any cache entries that have not been accessed in over 7 days. There is no limit on the number of caches you can store, but the total size of all caches in a repository is limited to 10 GB.
<illiliti> that have not been accessed
<illiliti> we could setup an action to access them
<illiliti> iirc it's possible to setup cron job
<testuser[m]12> but i dont think we can expose the actions cache to public
<illiliti> why would we need that
<testuser[m]12> hmm yea it would be useless outside large packages
<illiliti> you can expose artifacts if you really need that though
<illiliti> dilyn: if you're going to reinstate ML, consider enabling ipv6
<ehawkvu> kiss live is back (many thanks to illiliti) -
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<illiliti> nice
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<wael[m]> ehawkvu: the kiss-live github link leads to
<wael[m]> also very nice its rewritten
<wael[m]> but, why not have the entire iso be built without needing a tarball?
<ehawkvu> wael[m]: We already have a tool that generates tarballs, and it would be a duplication of effort
<wael[m]> interesting
<ehawkvu> any tarball made with mkrootfs should work with it
<wael[m]> just a off-topic question, isn't it possible to bootstrap KISS?
<wael[m]> i mean this as in to make KISS make a system by itself
<wael[m]> i made this a reality using XBPS and having it install all the system packages straight from nothing
<wael[m]> well, using binary packages of course
<wael[m]> my question is already answered due to how the previous kiss-live did it, it packaged all the system packages and installs them at runtime, via KISS_ROOT i assume.
<wael[m]> i really liked that method of isos because of how simple and small the iso was
<ehawkvu> The previous kiss-live script would use the prebuilt packages, store them in the iso, and on boot, extract them to /
<ehawkvu> the new one does essentially the same thing, except it just extracts one archive which has the entire system
<wael[m]> squashfs?
<ehawkvu> Long term I'd like to move to squashfs
<ehawkvu> I was more concerned with just getting the iso to build
<ehawkvu> I'd like to have it be similar to either void's mklive or cloveros's livecd build script
<wael[m]> how big is the iso?
<ehawkvu> for kiss-live? a little over 100MB
<wael[m]> gooood
<ehawkvu> Yeah it's pretty slim
<ehawkvu> It could likely get below 100MB if some more programs were dynamically linked
<ehawkvu> But 109MB is ok to me
<wael[m]> why are they not dynamically linked?
<ehawkvu> a lot of the software in core/ has been made to be statically linked (which I think is good btw), but in this one case it makes the isos a bit bigger
<ehawkvu> not by much, maybe a few megs
<testuser[m]12> Can there be a mix of generic and native code in a binary if you statically link a library that was buily with march=native ?
<ehawkvu> testuser[m]12: I would think so
<testuser[m]12> Then shouldn't the tarball rebuild itself atleast once
<virutalmachineus> you think kiss will ever be as big as void?
<wael[m]> oh god I hope not
<ehawkvu> mkrootfs will build all packages with general cflags so that should be a non-issue
<virutalmachineus> i mean as popularly
<testuser[m]12> But it doesn't link every package to the packages built for the tarball right? It just builds them all individually ehawkvu
<wael[m]> @virutalmachineuser : sure it means more packages or maintainers but the demand is too much
<testuser[m]12> Like static curl will link to the system openssl and zlib it was built on, not the one built for the Tarball
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<ehawkvu> testuser[m]12: I see what you mean - I generally do rootfs builds in a chroot to avoid this problem
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<ehawkvu> I'm not entirely sure how you mitigate it completely, and conviently
<virutalmachineus> i build it two times
<ehawkvu> Perhaps the CFLAGS could be modified to put the libraries that are available in the new rootfs before the host systems
<ehawkvu> So that only the general ones are linked against
<testuser[m]12> You'll have to bootstrap a new sysroot
<testuser[m]12> To do it cleanly
<testuser[m]12> I'll try
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<wael[m]> ehawkvu: in mkrootfs, if KISS is sourced as a 'library' why is die() and msg() still a function although KISS provides it? also there is no real check on if kiss exists in $kissloc, unless -e takes precedence and quits
<wael[m]> i very much find the reliance on mkrootfs for kiss-live a bit weird
<ehawkvu> wael[m]: I inherited the script from carbs, it was originally written by cem - I think it should be possible to remove the sourcing of kiss since it doesn't make much of a difference for the script in the end
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<ehawkvu> testuser[m]12: looks like it might be possible to avoid the 2 step build, gcc at least supports the '--sysroot' flag
<ehawkvu> which makes gcc act like 'dir' is root, and will look for libraries in the right places
<ehawkvu> clang also supports it
<wael[m]> ehawkvu: why not have the system similar to how void does it? IIRC it makes a rootfs but from there it either makes/converts it to a iso or as is rootfs
<ehawkvu> That's what we do already
<ehawkvu> If they make a rootfs, then use that rootfs to make an iso, then we are doing the same thing
<wael[m]> its not really automatic plus both are in seperate repositories
<wael[m]> but fair enough i suppose
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<testuser[m]12> @ehawkvu mpv in kiss-xorg needs libva
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<ehawkvu> testuser[m]12: ty
<midfavila> ohmygosh
<midfavila> dilyn is alive
<midfavila> truly a joyous day is this
<midfavila> where've you been?
<dilyn> lot of work, lot of vacation
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<dilyn> been working a lot on embedded hardware stuff; focusing a ton on riscv the last few months
<dilyn> I've become a kernel dev :clown:
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<ioraff> great
<phoebos> > We are sometimes hit by subtle portability issues like [1] because the
<phoebos> code was only tested on systems where /bin/sh is a symlink to bash.
<phoebos> who would write this and think the solution is enforcing bash
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<phoebos> rather than telling the guilty developers to write portable code
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<dilyn> "The kbuild test robot also specifies SHELL=/bin/bash to eliminate the
<dilyn> shell portability issue."
<dilyn> Man
<dilyn> if only there was some other way to eliminate shell portability issues
<dilyn> :'(
<midfavila> if only
<midfavila> alas
<dilyn> dilyn@Ares:~ -> apt-cache rdepends --installed bash
<dilyn> bash
<dilyn> Reverse Depends:
<dilyn>   gdm3
<dilyn> I build the kernel a lot; imagine if I just removed gnome like I want to and then removed bash. I'd be fscked
<virutalmachineus> can't wait when electron is require to build the kernel /s
<dilyn> lol ubuntu won't let you uninstall bash
<Ogromny> Does the patch for removing bash dependency has been accepted on linux 5.19 (or 5.20 don't remember) ?
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<Torr> Ogromny: On mainline? Unlikely
<Ogromny> Fuck
<Ogromny> We need to support bsd kernel lol
<Ogromny> linux kernel is becoming shit
<Torr> Honestly, a big portion of Linux use doesn't come by the kernel itself, but rather by its drivers.
<Torr> Devs accepting NDAs certainly speed up development.
<Ogromny> ehawkvu: :o
<ioraff> Ogromny: it hasn't been accepted
<Ogromny>, do you feel it, the day we will need rust to compile the kernel...
<illiliti> by that day i'll be on netbsd with wayland
<ioraff> I'm doubtful that anything besides drivers will be written in rust so long as linus is around.
<Torr> After he let somebody write an email impersonating him about his behavior, feel things would surprise me.
<ioraff> he certainly cares more about the kernel than his behavior or what people think of him
<virutalmachineus> is rust really that bad?
<Torr> virutalmachineus: Yes
<ioraff> better than c++ imo
<Torr> Actually it's worse than that.
<Torr> (Responding to virutalmachineus)
<virutalmachineus> don't you still rust for firefox? are all you running a text browser?
<illiliti> worse ioraff much worse
<illiliti> chromium
<virutalmachineus> * all you guys running a
<ioraff> how?
<virutalmachineus> isn't chromium more bloated
<illiliti> it is, but firefox at the same level tbh
<illiliti> ioraff: let's start with the fact that rust has only one mainstream implementation
<konimex> some people are insane enough to wait for ~24 hours to compile chromium (ymmv, ofc)
<illiliti> i did wait 2 days and at 99% build failed due to OOM lol
<Torr> Ouch
<ioraff> I agree that's a problem. presumably to be solved in due time.
<ioraff> konimex? been quite a while
<konimex> aye, I've been busy for a while
<dilyn> konimex :O  :D <3
<dilyn> chromium only takes forty minutes to build what are you talking about :eyes:
<konimex> not in my thinkpad at least, 5 hours in I gave up after problems with the llvm stack
<Torr> konimex: Went through something similar when trying to compile Librewolf.
<Torr> I was like "ok, I don't have enough lifetime to spend on this"
<illiliti> ioraff: it will never be solved if rust will keep breaking everything on each release
<illiliti> see firefox for example
<illiliti> it breaks on each rust release due to its dumbness
<illiliti> how one in the sane mind would rely on rust if they simply can't provide stable releases
<illiliti> there are many other problems actually
<illiliti> for example it's impossible to use rust in ipv6-only environments due to its high relience on github
<illiliti> so github is a single point of failure for rust
<illiliti> if github is down, rust is down too
<virutalmachineus> so mircosoft owns rust now
<virutalmachineus> mircosoft hated open source, now they are at the top xd
<Torr> They donated to Gnome ~.~
<Torr> That's like promoting disgenics.
<Torr> Dysgenics*
<konimex> hey, Poettering's employed by them now
<Torr> True
<illiliti> i forgot in which stage are we? extend?
<illiliti> or extinguish?
<Torr> At the vicinity of extinguish.
<virutalmachineus> how do we stop them!! is this the end to linux?
<Torr> Depends on what u mean by end. It's certainly not gonna be Linux as we know today.
<Ogromny> Linux is on a down path, rust everywhere, systemd, dbus, bloat, bash, glibc, flatpak/appimage/snap, etc
<illiliti> yeah it's inevitable
<illiliti> cuz it's being pushed by corpos
<Ogromny> BSD is still solid tho
<Torr> I wouldn't blame Systemd and its tentacles, Flatpak, Appimage and the likes, on Linux the kernel. Have not seen any core maintainer push that stuff.
<Torr> These came mostly from some distro maintainers.
<illiliti> look at the recent example
<illiliti> they want to hardcode bash in linux
<Ogromny> Honestly I think we should do a KissBSD
<Torr> I'm out of the loop on the whole Bash thing, could somebody link me to the patch mail?
<Torr> Thank you
<Torr> He's the Kconfig maintainer, eh.
<Torr> That one is to blame xD