<beach>
Excellent! Barring unforeseen complications, I will definitely show up.
<Shinmera>
great :)
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<paulapatience>
Me too
<paulapatience>
Finally
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<beach>
Great!
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<beach>
Is there a way to define an ASDF system so that ASDF will always recompile the files, even though there are cached FASL files?
<yitzi>
essentially requiring `:force t`?
<beach>
Yes, and I also haven't been able to make :FORCE T work, at least as far as I can tell.
<yitzi>
Not that I can see.
<beach>
Hmm.
<beach>
ASDF is interesting in that it seems to be built to allow for a lot of flexibility, but every time I seem to need some flexibility from ASDF, it is hard to obtain.
<beach>
I guess that just means that the flexibility I am after was not considered when ASDF was built.
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<beach>
yitzi: For what it's worth, I am contemplating alternative solutions to your DEFINE-INTERFACE. I will likely end up with your solution, but I want to think it through first.
<yitzi>
Makes sense.
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<beach>
My current idea is based on replacing (cl:in-package #:foo) with (cl:in-package #.(common-lisp-user:*mumble-package-name*))
<beach>
But then, the cached FASLs would be wrong even when the source hasn't changed.
<yitzi>
ASDF poluting the cache with "shimmmed" intrinsic systems while running ansi-test is one of the issues I was trying to fix. Macros like LOOP are especially devious because implementations assume that internal stuff doesn't get modified.
<beach>
Yes, I see.
<beach>
Now that I think about it, instead of (cl:in-package #.(common-lisp-user:*mumble-package-name*)), I could just omit the IN-PACKAGE form and make sure *PACKAGE* has the right value when compilation starts. Same FASL problem though.
<beach>
yitzi: Maybe you see what I am trying to do here. I am attempting to make the code look more "natural".
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<yitzi>
Yes. Are you relying on the same physical files being the intrinsic system and extrinsic system, just with different packages?
<beach>
Yes, that's the idea.
<beach>
For the interface systems. Not for the "core" system of course.
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<beach>
So if the user could define a package in some arbitrary desired way, and then get ASDF to build the interface code with *PACKAGE* being that package, then I believe that would be an alternative.
<yitzi>
Yeah, I couldn't get that work with ASDF. I tried playing with the various operations like `load-concatenated-source-op` ... no joy. There seems like there is a lot assumptions in ASDF.
<beach>
... but I fully admit not having thought it trough.
<beach>
Yes, that's what I meant by ASDF's strange flexibility, for what I need.
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<yitzi>
Yeah, it is very complex but also seems rigid.
<beach>
Exactly.
<yitzi>
I had to write a completly custom groveller for Clasp because there wasn't a way to inspect a system extrinsically. ASDF always assumed that *features* at the ASD load-time were the *features* for all eternity.
<beach>
Interesting.
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<beach>
OK, so I can do (let ((*package* ...)) (asdf:load-system ...)) and the value of *package* is preserved in the source files.
<beach>
Not surprising, but I had to check.
<beach>
Of course, If I do that again with a different package, ASDF uses the cached FASL.
<beach>
Oh, but :FORCE T works. YAY!
<beach>
Let me contemplate this idea some more. But now it's time to go fix dinner.
<Shinmera>
btw :force :all will also recompile all deps
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<beach>
Good to know.
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<yottabyte>
hello everyone, I was wondering why people just don't use languages like common lisp which are so feature rich and have been around for a while. it seems like new languages are a dime a dozen nowadays, everyone is coming out with them. rust, zig, it's hard to keep up with them all honestly
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<yottabyte>
does it have something to do with the developer experience? I've had some conversations in this channel before, is it because lisp can't be easily statically analyzed so you don't have nice editor features like those other languages do?
<paulapatience>
Some people complain about the parentheses
<paulapatience>
Lisp had something like LSP way before LSP
<yitzi>
Powerful tools require powerful minds. Aside from that it is dangerous to hypothesis on the motivations of others without asking them.
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<yottabyte>
sure, but genuinely, I have this question. like how is zig being adopted? are they just doing a better job marketing it?
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<dbotton>
yottabyte it is marketing. period.
<dbotton>
If you want a bunch of "ideas" ask on reddit :)
<NotThatRPG>
I have no idea about zig, but some languages are made for different purposes. Rust and CL really aim at programming for pretty much disjoint sets of programs.
<dbotton>
Zig has tons of marketing to make you think is being adopted.
<dbotton>
Rust has slowly gained some share but tons leaving more than taking it up.
<NotThatRPG>
Rust is quite popular as a C/C++ alternative
<dbotton>
Both though are a very different market than most of CL.
<dbotton>
It is popular to talk as an alternative for them yes.
<dbotton>
Corporate take up is there by very limited, I do suspect it will continue to grow as a better choice (not best).
<dbotton>
Rust has one compiler, only a fool buys into a language with only one source.
<dbotton>
There are of course many fools out there.
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<beach>
yottabyte: I am pretty sure part of the reason is in academia. Teachers are not trained in programming, so they either adopt languages that are theoretically appealing without considering their practical usefulness, or else, they do what they think everyone else does.
<beach>
The people who graduate are then not used to seeing something like Common Lisp, and they think it is old/interpreted/slow/strange-looking. So instead they tend to look into new languages that come out, because what they already use is not great and they constantly look for something better.
<beach>
In other words, as I often say, people go to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp.
<beach>
I am pretty sure about my analysis of academia, because I have experience in academia from 5 countries on 4 continents.
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<dbotton>
I can admit, I avoided learning Lisp for my whole software career :(
<beach>
There you go. :)
<dbotton>
Had I known.... had I known....
<beach>
So, say you are a university professor and you are told that the difference between a statically typed language (say like Haskell) and a dynamically typed language (say like Common Lisp) is that the statically typed language is much safer because you have fewer (some say no) run-time errors. Your choice is simple.
<beach>
But without programming experience, you don't know that the development cost of the statically typed language is much greater than that of the dynamically typed language. So you never consider presenting the spectrum of run-time safety vs development cost to the students.
<yitzi>
Coming from Mathematics & Physics I have observed that many students think that simplicity is an indication of correctness. They often indicate this with "why can't it be easier/simpler?" They falsely believe that things that easy to understand must therefore be better and more correct.
<beach>
Oh, that explains the desire for ever newer languages. They choose the simple stuff and then they are disappointed because it lacks many things, so they search for something new, also simple.
<dbotton>
Sometimes you can be too correct yitzi too
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<dbotton>
For example I have defended my choice in my frameworks and now in CLOG to choose usability (not laziness like keystroke issues) over covering every possible use case
<dbotton>
you can only set an event once, no observer patterns etc
<dbotton>
the few times you need to have multiple handlers of an event, install your own choice
<beach>
Of course I also have experience from the software industry, as a programmer, then a manager, and later a consultant. Most of the software industry is run by people without any significant training in software development.
<beach>
They just do what their competitors seem to do, so they don't make rational choices. And they are totally incapable of making a risk analysis with money attached to the risks. And the ones with university education are permanently damaged by what I said above.
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<dbotton>
This of course is only in "application" programming not per se systems
<beach>
yottabyte: There you have some elements of explanation.
<beach>
yottabyte: I wouldn't necessarily call them "fools" as dbotton did, but they are definitely ignorant, and often entirely determined to remain ignorant.
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<dbotton>
beach is correct, I was more referring to my own foolish choices that over the years got me in trouble locking in to a single compiler source etc.
<dbotton>
I should not take it out on others :)
<beach>
Heh!
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<dbotton>
you put it more elegantly :)
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<yottabyte>
great info all. thanks. when NotThatRPG said > Rust and CL really aim at programming for pretty much disjoint sets of programs., how so? I genuine question again, I don't know much about rust
<SAL9000>
I'd also add the "follow the herd" element -- rightly or wrongly, people think that using what (many) other people use is better. They're not 100% wrong because more people = richer ecosystem of open-source libraries/tools.
<yottabyte>
beach mentioned CL is interpreted, but it can be compiled as well, and I've seen some very impressive benchmarks
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<SAL9000>
yottabyte: in my limited experience, Rust's static analysis is nice for specific kinds of problems (concurrency and the like) but it's overly-constraining whenever you want to experiment (also known as being "agile") -- it's best when you know what you want to achieve. Some of the popularity may be piggy-backing on the second-system effect, now that I think about it.
<SAL9000>
also, in a bizarre way, Rust may be "Java 2.0" in that the ability to place many restrictions on inter-system communication is beneficial when you are dealing with a large quantity of unskilled developers (as is often the case in the industry, I believe)
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<yottabyte>
I see
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<alcor>
Is there a clean way to do multiline strings in standard CL? I know about format and concatenation. Was wondering if there's something better than that.
<alcor>
For the record, there is no way to avoid the multiline string. I'm using htmx with CL and the string in question is an embedded script which isn't too long, but isn't too short either.
<alcor>
(Side question: Does anyone in #commonlisp use htmx with CL? How do you deal with things like this ^)
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<yitzi>
Newlines are fine in CL strings. You don't need an escape like other languages.
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<alcor>
Hmm, I actually don't want to have newlines in the string, but in this case I guess it might be okay since JavaScript scripts don't care about that.
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<NotThatRPG>
alcor: What do you specifically want to do with multiline strings? Do you want to be able to write multiline string literals? Do you want to operate on multiline strings? We need a little more information to answer your questions.
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<alcor>
NotThatRPG: I mentioned the context in the next message: "I'm using htmx with CL and the string in question is an embedded script". More specifically, I'm generating some HTML with cl-who and the (long) string is just some JavaScript DOM event handling code embedded in a hx-on attribute.
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<NotThatRPG>
alcor: So what's the problem? You want to read the multi-line string out of the `hx-on` attribute? Or you want to assemble a multi-line string to go in there
<alcor>
I'm generating the string.
<alcor>
So yes, I want to assemble it in there without having the code look too gnarly if at all possible.
<yitzi>
So us the code that you think looks gnarly and maybe that will clarify what you want.
<NotThatRPG>
alcor: so the issue with not looking too gnarly sounds like it's how to mash together a bunch of string literals (possibly with variable interpolation)?