<Core8966>
hello, I'm here with some doubts about common lisp as restful service, reading the repo cl-awesome I discovered Hunchentoot and Woo from the same author, these are the recommended frameworks to use? also I saw caveman2 but I'm not so sure which one to pick, it is for personal projects and I already use java but I want to learn lisp
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<younder>
Restful service is a programming technique not a setup. I recommend you start with hunchentoot. It is the most documented and thus easiest to get started with. Feel free to look at my table-grinder https://github.com/jthing/table-grinder is you want to get a idea of how to use it.
<ixelp>
GitHub - jthing/table-grinder: Database CRUD without the cruft
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<Core8966>
thx
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<basicnpc>
Because common lisp user can write codes that ask the compiler to check certain stuff at compile time, in theory, we should be able to define a macro, say, def-type-fun and def-type-var, that enable static type support? This may be something that coalton is doing. However, I see it as a new language implemented over common lisp, whereas this proposal feels like a slight extension.
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<bike>
well, first off we already have static types through type declarations
<bike>
but if you mean a static type system in the sense that the compiler can type check a program and say definitively that it has no type errors, that touches on more of the language than just macros
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<basicnpc>
I meant the second.
<bike>
standard operators are written with dynamic types in mind. basic functions like FUNCALL take diverse "designator" arguments rather than single checkable types
<basicnpc>
Mere macros can't do it, even with suitable use of eval-when?
<bike>
that's a lot of why coalton is a DSL
<bike>
i mean, consider for example (car (read)). how do you type check that? READ can return anything. Whether this is an error or not depends on what is read at runtime.
<basicnpc>
Right. With def-type-fun and def-type-var, we will be using new operators and variables.
<basicnpc>
All of the old ones, like car and read, remain in the untyped realm.
<bike>
that's just coalton again.
<basicnpc>
And if one needs to interop with the old op, cares have to be taken (e.g. Haskell's unsafe operation etc)
<Shinmera>
Yeah you're just re-inventing coalton
<basicnpc>
Interesting. Let me think about any possible difference. Thank you.
<bike>
you're talking about normal lisp code having to be in a segregated zone like unsafe. so, this isn't just an extension to normal lisp.
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<basicnpc>
Another question: fset provides persistent data structure. Theoretically, can one make a new OOP mechanism based on it? So that "objects" are really values?
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<bike>
what would that entail?
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<basicnpc>
For example, an object is just a collection of slots and corresponding objects. One should be able to use persistant maps for that.
<basicnpc>
When you "update" a value of a slot, you create an entirely new object instead, like how you update a persistant map (hash-table like structure).
<bike>
sure. i don't think you'd even particularly need fset for that.
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<basicnpc>
Oh? Is there any other library for persistent data structure?
<_death>
an important part of Objects is that they have an identity...
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<bike>
fset provides implementations of containers like maps and sets. you don't need those for objects. i mean you can use a map as an object but why bother when we already have objects
<basicnpc>
Why so? I find most of the time I'm treating them as a record of data. And, defclass and friends are handy because relevant functions are defined automatically.
<bike>
if you want an "update" that copies you can just do that with regular objects
<basicnpc>
bike Because objects are not immutable. It may cause troubles if we're working in a a concurrent setting.
<bike>
they're immutable if you don't mutate them. just don't define slot writers and there you go.
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<bike>
and define update-by-copy functions instead, if you like
<basicnpc>
But often times we want to change the value of a certain slot for an object.
<basicnpc>
In traditional OOP, we mutate that slot. In immutable ways, we create a new object with that slot's value changed.
<bike>
sure, so just define functions to do that for you.
<bike>
fset isn't doing anything magical. it just defines a WITH function and so on that make a new container based on an old container. you don't need fset to define that stuff for standard objects.
<remexre>
is there a good microbenchmarking library someone would wanna recommend? (I've got a recursive algorithm that can terminate in an iterative one at the leaves, I'd like to write a "script" that tries to find the optimal size to fall back to the iterative one at)
<basicnpc>
Hmm.. I haven't looked at its source code but it's using trees under the hood to create new objects. From what I understand, it is necessary, unless I'm willing to accept deep copying objects everytime, which is inefficient.
<bike>
there's no need to deep copy if the internals are also immutable
<bike>
it uses trees because that's how you represent sets efficiently. but you're talking about objects, not sets. you're not adding and removing slots willy nilly.
<basicnpc>
Interesting. I need to think about it.
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<_death>
there are times when you do want more dynamicity in slots, and then you can have something like (defclass dynamic-object () ((slots :initarg :slots :accessor dynamic-object-slots)) (:default-initargs :slots (fset:empty-map)))
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<basicnpc>
Do most common lisp implementations support GC that plays well with immutable data structures like this? Or more generally, are there GC techniques that work particularly well for immutable data structures?
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<beach>
My guess is that for immutable data structures (which generate more garbage when you "modify" them) you would want a collector that does not touch garbage at all. Copying collectors work like that. I don't know what current Common Lisp implementations use, though.
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<pfdietz>
Copying collectors also enable related data to be moved close to one another, to improve cache behavior.
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<dbotton>
paulapatience - in the end there is a linux package wslu that once install give xdg-open on wsl the expected behaviors as a regular linux machine
<paulapatience>
dbotton: Thanks
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<basicnpc>
touch.. the garbage?
<basicnpc>
Nvm, I will look that up. Thanks.
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<beach>
Some garbage collectors add garbage objects to a pool of free objects. Others just copy live objects and everything not copied is garbage.
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<alcor>
Having a silly issue with the FORMAT function: How do you get it to print a literal @ symbol?
<josrr>
,(format t "@")
<ixelp>
(format t "@") @ => NIL
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<alcor>
I want to prepend @ to a string. But obviously (format nil "@~A" s) does not work because @ here gets interpreted as a modifier :/
<bike>
if the @ is before the tilde, it shouldn't be interpreted as a modifier.
<alcor>
Oops, sorry, disregard that question. I just made a dumb mistake.
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<alcor>
I typed in (format nil "@–A" s) by mistake (note the –) and spend 10 minutes wondering why that doesn't work :|
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<yitzi>
alcor: if you are just prepending then why not `(concatenate 'string "@" s)`?
<alcor>
That's an option, but concatenate forms look kinda gnarly to me.
<alcor>
But that's like, my opinion. Having to explicitly specify the result type feels redundant.
<yitzi>
Try doing a macroexpand on FORMATTER
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<alcor>
I'm going to sleep soon and don't want to have any nightmares, so maybe later.
<yitzi>
You'll see that your format call is most likely equivalent to `(with-output-to-string (str) (write-char #\@ str) (princ s str))`
<yitzi>
And that is being very optimistic.
<alcor>
But that's … not so bad? I imagined something worse.
<alcor>
I guess the concatenate form performs better but I'm not doing any microoptimizations yet.
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<Shinmera>
I pretty much never use concatenate just because it's so horrible to read compared to format
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<Shinmera>
and in fact in my primitive benchmark both ways perform the same
<Shinmera>
presumably because sbcl can optimise the w-o-t-s to about the same thing
<Shinmera>
so
<Shinmera>
just format
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