<nij->
1. What is an example of why it's beneficial to have restart? I mean, with handler-bind we can invoke another function call *in the frame* where the condition happened.. but what's good about this? Any simple real life use case?
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<nij->
2. With handler-bind, we can resume to the frame and go. Can we further pass information from the handler to that frame (e.g. by changnig some variable bindings) instead?
<nij->
I have a simple model in mind. Not sure if it could be implemented out nicely.
<nij->
Consider a boss and a worker. The worker loops on #'doing-their-work, and every now and then, the worker #'f-up and signal a condition. The boss will tolerant three times before firing the worker. But with each tolerance, the boss instructs (question 2) the worker to do something else with a slightly different environment (question 2).
<ixelp>
Beyond Exception Handling: Conditions and Restarts
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<bike>
you can pass arguments to restarts, so you can pass information down from the handler, sure
<bike>
this is how the built in use-value restart works, for instance
<bike>
an example of restarts being useful is how you can break something in the repl and hit the "return to repl" restart instead of killing the process
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<nij->
Yeah. I think this is the first time I understand this.
<nij->
Thanks. I'm writing out the model I want haha.
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<nij->
It complains that #'continue-working-with-increased-ease is not defined. However, I was just trying to mimick #'use-value in the last few examples of gigamonkey.
<paulapatience>
use-value is a function, but continue-working-with-increased-ease is not
<paulapatience>
You have not defined it as a function anywhere, hence the error
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<paulapatience>
“Common Lisp provides a restart function for USE-VALUE similar to the skip-log-entry function you just defined.”
<paulapatience>
s/provides/defines/
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<nij->
OH.. I see... Use-value is predefined.
<nij->
Hmm.. but wait, line 28 doesn't serve as a definition of that function?
<paulapatience>
No, that is where you jump to when you call invoke-restart
<nij->
By the way, was there a claim that in order to implement a portable condition system for CL, one only needs throw, catch, and some macros?
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<beach>
You need special variables too, and it is best to have BLOCK/RETURN-FROM.
<beach>
Check out Predicament, which is a version of phoe's portable condition system that can be used both extrinsically and intrinsically.
<nij->
Why do I need special var?
<nij->
Amazing.
<nij->
The latest version: https://bpa.st/HFFQ I got rid of the special variable.
<ixelp>
View paste HFFQ
<beach>
Because those define things in the dynamic environment, and the condition system must define things in the dynamic environment. If you look at the operators of the condition system, they often say stuff like "establishes a dynamic context in which..."
<nij->
Oh, I see. I thought you were referring to my code.
<nij->
Ok. Got it.
<beach>
No, I made a remark on your claim.
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<beach>
Speaking of Predicament, we are looking for maintainers. Most of it is done, but there are a few operators left to define, and there are documentation strings to write.
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<nij->
Is phoe still hanging around? Haven't heard of phoe speaking for a while.
<beach>
Yes, he is still around, and usually answers when being spoken to.
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<pillton>
Has any lisp implementation considered introducing "macro-lambda" expressions? i.e. the macro function equivalent of ((lambda (x) (1+ x)) x). An example would be `((macro-lambda ((op x y)) `(setf ,x (,op ,x ,y))) ((lambda (u v) (+ u v)) (aref x 0) (aref y 0))) => (setf (aref x 0) ((lambda (u v) (+ u v)) (aref x 0) (aref y 0)).
<pkal>
pillton: You can do that in Elisp using ((macro . (lambda (...) ...)) ...)
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<pillton>
pkal: Oh cool.
<aeth>
pillton: a similar thing I've defined is destructuring-lambda, a lambda of one argument that calls destructuring-bind on its sole argument... that gets you the macro-style lambda-list, but it stays quoted
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<pillton>
aeth: Nice.
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<younder>
Why does mcclim incessantly whine about a sb-ext:gray-streams and trivial-gray-streams conflict?
<beach>
You might try #clim for that question.
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<younder>
beach: anyhow started a sicl-graph side project to implement grahviz dot's default layout algorithm and render it in mcclim. It will be used to help debug the SSA graph.
<beach>
Great. But I advise you to use a name that does not have SICL in it.
<younder>
TBNL is taken..
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<younder>
mcgraph?
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<beach>
If you think it is specific to McCLIM. Otherwise, just use CLIM in the name.
<pranavats>
Dagre is the common suffix these kind of libraries use after the js library. common-dagre?
<pranavats>
This was a project on my todo list too...implementing layered graph drawing.
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<beach>
What does "dagre" mean?
<younder>
Yeah, I will use it primarily in mcclim, but it makes sense to make the backend swapable.
<bike>
directed acyclic graph... something...?
<pranavats>
DAG Rendering
<pranavats>
I suppose
<pranavats>
Pronounced like dagger maybe.
<bike>
if it's supposed to represent some SSA IR, it's probably not acyclic
<younder>
Tekically dot has a algorithm that writes cyclic graphs into dag's first
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<younder>
I suppose I won't be needing it though
<pranav>
younder, In case you find it helpful, a friend implemented these algorithms for Elm and collected fair amount of resources on sugiyama style graph drawing. https://github.com/goyalarchit/elm-dagre/wiki
<ixelp>
Home · goyalarchit/elm-dagre Wiki · GitHub
<montxero>
One more thing, how do I export such definition from a package?
<beach>
Packages do not export definitions; only symbols. So export LOOKUP.
<montxero>
Wow! so, exporting LOOKUP automatically gives me the ability to use (setf (lookup key dictionary) value)?
<beach>
Yes.
<montxero>
:thumbsup:
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<beach>
montxero: These are very basic questions, so you might want to join #clschool for questions like that.
<beach>
montxero: This channel is not really meant of basic questions like that, though they are tolerated, especially when traffic is otherwise low. In #clschool, there are people present for the purpose of answering questions, and they may not be present here.
<montxero>
beach: Noted.
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<NotThatRPG>
@pranav @younder : Couldn't you call out to graphviz to do the graph layout for graphs, and then take its output to feed CLIM's node layout?
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<younder>
NotThatRPG: Yes, I could, there is a cl-graphwiz library. But I will go for a all Lisp solution.
<_death>
you could put some effort into fixing scigraph
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<_death>
ah.. for some reason I thought the context was charts not graph layout
<scymtym>
NotThatRPG: that solution is already available in McCLIM
<NotThatRPG>
scymtym: Neat! It's obviously been too long since I have spent quantity time with McCLIM.
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<nij->
McCLIM only works for X?
<younder>
Until that sdl2 interface is up and running at any rate
<nij->
Looks so indeed :-(
<nij->
Why don't people aim for a "more portable" interface platform?
<nij->
LEM also implemets on sdl2.
<nij->
I wonder why.. why not use QT or electron? Are they really that bad?
<nij->
Oh wait, sorry, sdl2 is 'portable' too.
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<younder>
There is also the web interface in CLOG
<nij->
Does sdl2 support web interface?
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<holycow>
sdl2 is just an interface to the graphics subsystem
<holycow>
it has nothing to do with web interfaces
<nij->
As always, I'm out of my depth here. So for example, if McClim's sdl2 support is done, can we view webpages in it?
<nij->
(all the web widgets.. etc.)
<holycow>
no why would you be able to?
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<holycow>
mcclim is just a toolkit
<holycow>
an interface toolkit i guess
<holycow>
it has nothing to do with web browser
<holycow>
basically mcclim is like gtk or qt
<holycow>
gtk and qt are frameworks you use to create graphical interfaces for your applications
<holycow>
you can install gtk or qt but you cannot browse the web until you write an application that uses those toolkits for the interface
<holycow>
write your own app in electron and see for your self
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<holycow>
if you are going to ask ridiculous question like why not write the ui for your app in electron (you don't really do taht with electron anmyway)
<holycow>
what you really should be asking is this:
<holycow>
you have 10 million languages to choose from
<holycow>
and probably 10 000 ui toolkits
<nij->
holycow, come down
<nij->
calm*
<holycow>
what permutation of languages plus toolkits to use
<holycow>
and since you are in a lisp channel
<nij->
Isn't electron slow and terrible in performance due to many badly written code?
<holycow>
the answer is ostensibly, we use what we want and your questions are ridiculous
<nij->
Is there proof that electron itself is bad?
<holycow>
at least so far
<holycow>
who cares
<holycow>
you are in a lisp channel
<holycow>
we don't use electron here
<nij->
we = you
<holycow>
you go use it and ask stupid questions in those channels
<yitzi>
Well, technically lem had an electron binding at one point.
<holycow>
we have nothing to prove to someone that can't even google
<holycow>
not only that
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<nij->
nyxt also still has an electron binding
<holycow>
they are our opinions, and we do not have to answer to you about WHY we have the opinions that we do
<holycow>
you do what you do
<nij->
holycow You don't have to. But don't speak for everyone else.
<yitzi>
Dial it back please.
<holycow>
everyone else can do what they do
<holycow>
neither do you
<holycow>
so shut the fuck up already
<nij->
...
<holycow>
don't think you can walk into a community and not run into someone like me that is willing to put up with your bullshit
<holycow>
is <not>
<nij->
I didn't say it's good.
<holycow>
no one cares
<nij->
I'm just asking why it's bad.
<holycow>
there is no conversation to be had here
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<holycow>
go and use whatefver language you like with whatever toolkit you like
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<holycow>
you aren't asking why it's bad
<holycow>
you were given the reason
<nij->
I don't understand why you're so mad here. But I think that's digression. Lemme find out a way to filter out your message and I will ask again.
<holycow>
and you are actually using this channel for your personal bitch session because you don't get enough attention in your personal life
<yitzi>
holycow: you've said your bit. Now move on.
<kagevf>
someone got triggered
<nij->
holycow, my mind is not like yours, which believes whatever you've googled.
<nij->
I'm dumber and stupider.
<nij->
Sorry if that pissed you off.
<holycow>
you are abusing the priviledges of this channel in an obvious and malicious way
<holycow>
you are acting in completely bad faith
<dcb>
nij-: /ignore is always faster than arguing
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<nij->
(But wow, internet bully feels real. My heart is bumping faster and it feels bad.. Sorry folks on #commonlisp. You didn't have to see this show.)
<nij->
Thanks dcb. I did that; don't know if it works.
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<Noisytoot>
<nij-> Is there proof that electron itself is bad?
<nij->
Per performance issue, I can't find full proof.
<nij->
I can find many rants and hates online. But that reminds me when people complain about emacs bloat and slow, until they ran `emacs -Q` and realized it's their config that's shitty.
<holycow>
if you don't have the balls to center the poorly trained individuals they will use your kindness with ZERO consideration for you or the support you are providing
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<nij->
Noisytoot I tried git clone chromium but it is 45GB. Gave up..
<nij->
Noisytoot Are there any other platform that can show the web but "free"?
<bike>
why are you debugging a chrome download in the lisp channel
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<nij->
Sorry, got digressed too much. I was wondering why lisp interface programs choose this but not that.
<bike>
you ask a lot of questions to that effect, and i think you should realize that the answer is probably going to involve factors like "nobody felt like it" or "that wasn't what someone needed for the particular thing they were doing". you're not always going to get some kind of satisfying engineer-y answer
<nij->
I dunno. Perhaps the answer is quite definite? Like maybe electron is really bad and there's a good reason not to go for it. If that's the case, I'd think it's also good to have it spreaded here.
<nij->
Or maybe there's no definite answer again - in which case, someone here may also start thinking about the possibility.
<nij->
In either case, I hope I exchange some slightly useful info being spreaded with burdening this channel a little bit more.
<dcb>
"lack of people working on it", perhaps
<nij->
I think so too, at least from the naive 'research' done so far.
<bike>
counterfactuals are rarely definite
<Noisytoot>
nij-: depending on a 45GB repo (if you want to compile it from source) is another reason why it's bad
<younder>
For Clim's part the 100% common lisp is the main reason. The less dependency on c/c++ code the better.
<younder>
If you don't care is always Qtools
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<nij->
Clim uses clx which binds to x, no?
<nij->
nyxt also binds to electron through cl-electron.
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<younder>
CLOG is a full web development GUI which is programmed like a GUI app. It comes with CLOG builder a complete development environment.
<younder>
clx is a thin wrapper around xlib, yes
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<nij->
Can I embed web widgets in CLOG?
<nij->
and browse web pages?
<younder>
Browse web pages should be fine. CLOG has it's own widgets. But you can integrate JS stuff as well I think.
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<nij->
"CLOG uses websockets for communications and the browser to render a GUI that maintains an active soft realtime connection." Oh cool.
<nij->
Could this get slow when the graphic has to change fast?
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<younder>
dbottom who wrote it lurks around here. Perhaps he can answer. Otherwise he as made some introductory videos.
<nij->
@ dbotton
<holycow>
you guys have to be fucking kidding me
<holycow>
not only are you too weak to clean this mess up
<holycow>
you now sick this thing on dbotton?
<holycow>
seriously?
<holycow>
is no one an adult here with experience dealing with this sort of thing?
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<dbotton>
<nij-> take a look at tutorial 22 and the CLOG Builder itself written in CLOG
<bike>
your behavior is not what i would have in mind from an adult. this seems like a disproportionate level of anger in response to somebody possibly asking stupid questions.
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<nij->
*sigh* .. sorry bike, sorry all.
<nij->
dbotton Thanks for writing CLOG! I've been through the tutorial once. It's amazing.
<nij->
Lemme look at t22 again. I'm just not familiar with websocket. I wonder what are some gotchas.
<nij->
I was pondering the possibility of rewriting emacs's redisplay into some portable interface a few days ago (ofc not going anywhere).
<holycow>
bike: fair critique.
<dbotton>
holycow electron works, clogframe is a lighter solution but it gets a bad wrap for wrong reasons
<bike>
nij-: i do have to say that your behavior of asking frankly ignorant questions about the internals of systems you don't seem to actually be using is not ideal. for example, rather than just saying "could this get slow" you should maybe give it a try yourself, or check the documentation for info on how rendering works.
<holycow>
he isn't asking questions he knows nothing about
<holycow>
he know EXACTLY all of the answer to his question
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<holycow>
you cannot ask the questions he is asking without knowing the answers
<Inline>
aha
<holycow>
you cannot say things like "i want to rewrite emacs redisplay ..." and ask the above questions
<Inline>
heh
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<nij->
bike How would giving it a try shows whether it will be slow in perhaps a larger scaled project?
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<holycow>
bike: i will accept your critique as true and shut up but the qualifier for my response is roughly this: i don't like lying and subterfuge. i feel it is abusive and while there are better ways than mine to respond, once in a while you have to put your foot down. that being said, i will leave and cool off and as always thanks for all the help. you guys are awesome.
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<dcb>
nij-: mostly because first you should try it and see
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<Bicyclidine>
stupid connection.
<dcb>
trying to optimize before having profiling metrics usually doesn't work
<Bicyclidine>
nij-: because then maybe you would gain some understanding of how the system works and be able to get an educated guess for the answer yourself, rather than rely on other people who probably also haven't written larger scaled projects to make educated guesses for you.
<dbotton>
I am not following what is going on. Oh well. nij- in general I find that thoughts about speed and size optimizations are a waste of time until the end. By the time you finish the speed of hardware and software make it irrelevant
<Bicyclidine>
the details aren't important.
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<nij->
dbotton Thanks for sharing your the experience and approach on this.
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<younder>
beach: The name for graphviz dot style graph plotting is now cl-dagre
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<Shinmera>
hello, I don't check this channel as often as I'd like anymore, but if behaviour like holycow's pops up again, please feel free to ping me
<Shinmera>
I'm personally not a big fan of simple questions either, but the level of abuse displayed is not acceptable.
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<nij->
Hello gilberth. Have you shared your parser or dpANS that helped generate novaspec before?
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