<metsomedog>
I don't get a warning when compiling the function above, but originally it was in an flet which gave warnings about unreachable code.
<beach>
The keys in a CASE are not evaluated.
<beach>
So you are matching against three symbols.
<metsomedog>
So I have to use COND for ints?
<beach>
If you make sure your constants exist at read time, you can do (case flag (#.+waiting+ "WAITING") ...)
<beach>
Or you can use COND, yes.
<metsomedog>
what does the #. prefix do?
<beach>
Readtime evaluation.
<metsomedog>
I see, seems COND is preferable then. Thanks
<beach>
Sure.
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<paulapatience>
Serapeum has SELECT, which is CASE with evaluated keys
<metsomedog>
paulapatience: Thanks, nice to know for the future
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<dbotton>
is there a trivial-open-document or the like that uses each OS type's open (open on mac, explorer perhaps on win, xdlg-open linux) a document?
<yitzi>
dbotton: I think shinmera has one
<dbotton>
will take a look, I know there is one for html
<ixelp>
windows - How to open file with default application in cmd? - Stack Overflow
<dbotton>
it does, but not the issue
<dbotton>
it has to do with path conversions
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<dbotton>
btw explorer.exe does not handle C:/Users/ you have to translate to C:\Users\
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<dbotton>
etc
<paulapatience>
Does pathname-utils:native-namestring not work?
<paulapatience>
Or uiop:native-namestring.
<paulapatience>
(I don't remember if they invert the slashes on Windows.)
<Shinmera>
that's already used in my code
<Shinmera>
though also windows treats forward slashes the same as backslashes and has for ages
<dbotton>
but not explorer.exe and on wsl you are using xdg-open
<dbotton>
is ok just need to tweak a bit for my use
<dbotton>
for example xdg-open on wsl can not handle xdg-open "~/common-lisp/clog/README.md"
<Shinmera>
how are you running that? ~ is expanded by a shell
<dbotton>
command line
<dbotton>
even expanded does not work
<Shinmera>
huh.
<dbotton>
it just pops explorer but in wrong place
<dbotton>
will have to play around with later
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<paulapatience>
dbotton: Let me know any conclusions, please
<dbotton>
sure
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<paulapatience>
We don't have to close streams returned from make-string-input-stream, right?
<nocturnal-one>
Forward slashes are supported since DOS got directories. Which is DOS version 2. But only with system calls. The shell to compatible with CP/M uses the forward slash for command options (with DOS that could actually be changed) and thus needs the backwards slash as a directory separator. So with Windows what you really have is two syntaxes for pathnames. One for system calls and one for the shell.
<nocturnal-one>
No, we don't.
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<paulapatience>
Thanks
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<shka>
how can i list all file components of a asdf system?
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<beach>
shka: Maybe ASDF/PLAN:REQUIRED-COMPONENTS will work for you?
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<shka>
beach: it does! thank you!
<beach>
Sure.
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<dbotton>
paulapatience my issues where because I was not using the standard xdg-open
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<paulapatience>
A different one was installed by default?
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<dbotton>
I must have at some point did a sym link to explorer.exe, I put back the real one and linked firefox to explorer.exe
<dbotton>
so still can open url's on windows side
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<metsomedog>
Does anyone know a way to remove stale tests from fiveam without restarting repl? Reasoning: renamed tests. I tried to unintern the symbols without luck.
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<metsomedog>
Figured it out: (let ((suite (slot-value fiveam::*suite* 'fiveam::tests))) (maphash (lambda (k v) (remhash k suite)) suite))
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<younder>
I got shirakumo's :trial game engine to work. The main trick is you need his pathname-utils from github not the one in quicklisp. So download that to local-projects. Anyhow setting it up is indeed a trial.
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<pranav>
younder: Is it not available from her custom quicklisp dist?
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<paulapatience>
younder: As pranav mentioned, there is the shirakumo quicklisp dist that has all the right versions.
<younder>
No, apparently setting that didn't solve the problem for me. Also had to download trivial-deprecate and convex-covering.
<yottabyte>
Continuing the conversation from yesterday, someone mentioned e.g. Rust and Common Lisp are used to work on a disjoint set up problems, can someone elaborate on that? Because if they're marketed as general purpose languages, then I would think that wouldn't be the case
<yottabyte>
Now I realize JavaScript being used for web code because browsers work off js makes sense that you would use it for that purpose instead of common lisp (I guess there is clojurescript), but yeah. Even that might be different from what was being said yesterday
<yottabyte>
I guess like you would want to use python for a lot of ai/ml stuff because the libraries already exist for it, not necessarily because the language itself is generally better or better suited for those kind of taks
<holycow>
warning, noob opinion incoming: i have looked into two things: why programmers chose their languages and then separately why programmers say waht they say
<holycow>
i don't think those two things are connected to either each other nor reality
<holycow>
programmers seem to chose their programming languages the way people chose sports teams: based on the colour of the jersey rather than any substantial reason
<holycow>
or deep insight
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<holycow>
and the opinions programmers post, well, that is kind of hillarious to conssider that those posts are about as deep as fashion magazine articles
<yottabyte>
Sure, right. I remember a talk Carmack gave about how lisp is probably a better language but if you have decades of c/c++ experience and are just way more productive in those languages, it's like the sunk cost fallacy. They don't want to put in that much effort again, even if it only took half the effort to get back to the same level
<yottabyte>
They (the top game devs) have gotten to a level where it's probably just easy for them
<holycow>
mostly no one really picks a language nor comes to an opinion about anything for any real deep reason because when you start life you need to pick up some tools and go, and if you forget to reflect and rill down, you just end up at this surface level talking about polymorphism this and ast that as if those conversations mean anything
<yottabyte>
Now I also don't know anything about the modern game engines like Unreal and what it actually takes, but it might be heavily abstracted at this point, and not like how Carmack was writing game engine code and writing games from scratch
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<holycow>
yup, that is the other thing, sunk cost fallacy as well. once you have invested 20 years in fiddling but did not spend 20 years thinking about what and why you do what you do, people kind of say silly things.
<holycow>
it doesn't help that most of the work programmers do is duck taping business use cases together in organizations that kind of all seem like mindless zombies led and run by talentless, visionless hacks if looked at from the inside.
<holycow>
yet, it all somehow manages to work and support 8 bilioon people on the planet
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<holycow>
anyway, all of the above was to make the point that most people saying things like language a is for this and language b is probably saying something not right for the reasons above
<holycow>
and even if language a is typically used for usecase a and language b is used for usecase b doesn't really answer the case as to whether they should be used in either use case nor does it answer the question of whether any language has a particularly better fit for either use case domain.
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<ixelp>
Java was created because of pointer bugs in C/C++ | James Gosling and Lex Fridman - YouTube
<holycow>
take javas reason for existing
<holycow>
it solves a bunch of c++ problems yet people still use c++
<holycow>
economics of choice leads to some really weird choices and opinions i guesss
<younder>
C++ is a better language than java
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<younder>
Speaking of shallow opinions like in a fashion magazine ;)
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<holycow>
i am not in a position to really judge
<holycow>
i am a sysadmin so i have contextual understanding. but, for me, programming languages don't exist. what exists is syntax and i am learning to program in common lisp for two reasons: prefix notation is the lowest entropy syntax that i have found and sbcl / common lisp implementations seem like wonderful targets for the syntax.
<younder>
For the record the popularity of Java was mostly because of windows programming. MS had a C++ interface that was truly awful.
<yottabyte>
Interesting
<holycow>
if i had to make a living learning infinite amounts of infix notation just to organize math + logic to do things i would shoot my self
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<holycow>
is that why the market chose to go with java? i was there when it appeared, i just don't remember why peple chose it
<younder>
Then came Swing and a delegation model of event handling. Somehow this was attributed to Java and not to a better library design. If you look at more modern C++ libraies for windows programming like Ql or gtkmm they are fine.
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<yottabyte>
It seems like desktop apps nowadays are all JavaScript and HTML. I could be wrong
<yottabyte>
Electron and the other alternatives
<yottabyte>
I still see the occasional cocoa app doing some really beautiful stuff
<holycow>
hard to tell, most have moved to other peoples computers + a browser
<holycow>
besides games and engineering, not sure how much is left any more
<yottabyte>
Right
<holycow>
let me ask you a question
<holycow>
you are asking about opinions on usecases for programming languages and i am making the point that those are incidental to markets making ridiculous choices
<holycow>
but, is anyone really programming using a language, or are we all interfacing with a compiler to produce the machine code to organize the logic gates to spit out some numbers?
<holycow>
in other words, isn't the compiler that enables everythign and not the language? the language is just the pseudo interface to the compiler. am i wrong about that?
<holycow>
for example, take sbcl and ecl. both common lisp ostensibly (plus or minus) but one provides the image based set of features and the other spits out c style features?
<Josh_2>
extremely reductionist view that completely misses the point of abstraction
<holycow>
does it really?
<holycow>
all languages do only one thing: organize math + logic
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<holycow>
there is not a single high level concept that doesn't reduce to that
<holycow>
note? not arguning, just curious.
<Josh_2>
some languages make it easier to organize math + logic
<Josh_2>
you dont use a screwdriver to drive a nail
<holycow>
which is why i am learning common lisp, agreed. prefix notation is superior in my opnion.
<bjorkintosh>
"<Josh_2> you dont use a screwdriver to drive a nail." Hold my beer
<Josh_2>
:joy:
<Josh_2>
Sometimes you gotta use the tools available to you
<bjorkintosh>
'xactly.
<pranav>
You don't use a hammer with a glass-handle to drive it either—a fragile interface, that is.
<holycow>
well that isn't really a good analogy in my opinion
<holycow>
first of all, the end point of all programming organizing a bunch of logic gates to do something
<holycow>
and we only have a few logic gates, do cpus even do multiplication yet?
<pranav>
holycow: What would a compiler do with no language to parse? Certainly a language is needed to enable expression of what/how to do.
<pranav>
s/parse/translate
<holycow>
pranav: asking that is like saying what a car would be like without wheels and a steering wheel
<holycow>
or a hammer without a handle
<holycow>
language is an interface to the compile, the compiler in my estimation is what provides all the capabilities. maybe when people say language they are actually talking about the compiler + language so i could be parsing this wrong
<holycow>
but
<pranav>
Exactly. So languages enable compilers/interpreters to exist in the first place.
<holycow>
all languages just organize math + logic. there are no nails or oranges. all languages drive nails in my view
<holycow>
i don't think tha tis true though
<pranav>
That's...not even wrong. What does it mean to organize math + logic?
<holycow>
what do you mean?
<holycow>
programming is ONLY math + logic. there is nothing else that a programming language deals with.
<holycow>
you could invent any syntax you want to organize math + logic
<holycow>
so for example, sbcl + ecl. same language, same syntax, one provides an image based development cycle the other a c style environment
<Josh_2>
You should write asm
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<holycow>
it's on the todo. but i see what you ar saying there, i have gone through a few tutorials
<pranav>
Goodluck holycow.
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<Josh_2>
I am watching the ELS stalks
<Josh_2>
hope they make it onto the youtube
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