<green_>
I've been experimenting with a new ocicl feature. The idea is that you can ask ocicl what has changed between two versions of a system, or what's different between the version in your environment, and the latest available in the ocicl repo. The descriptions are generated by an LLM at build-time, and retrieving them is very fast. eg. https://paste.centos.org/view/1fbd2f6c I should tweak the prompts a little more, but I think it's promising.
<paulapatience>
If the systems provide NEWS or changelog files maybe you could extract the relevant changes
<green_>
so few do, but you are right. I could include git logs or similar along with the diffs. Right now i just feed it diffs.
<green_>
I like the format (key changes, user impact), but they are still a little wordy
<paulapatience>
You could also make it so users can request the diffs directly
<paulapatience>
That I would find useful
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<green_>
Oh, that would be easy -- at least from one version to the next. I'm already generating the diff so I could stuff it in the repo as is.
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<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: In your posted code, there are several things that don't conform to conventions. Do you take remarks about those?
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
beach, sure. I've been wandering outside CL for a few years.
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<aeth>
beach: I'm assuming the naming conventions that don't match are because it's Logo's naming convention?
<aeth>
though it may look better if Pixel_Outlaw were to use idiomatic CL names for the CL functions/methods and then just have another layer translate Logo to CL
<Pixel_Outlaw>
there are a few set type things that I pulled from the documentation in the URL at the top. ;)
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Generally I'd append an F
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Much of those names are taken from UCB Logo to match existing commands.
<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: For starters, you are wasting precious vertical space by having two blank lines between each top-level form.
<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: And top-level comments have at least 3 semicolons.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Yeah, I can fix that up. Using all 4 levels of Lisp commentary. ;)
<beach>
Usually 3 semicolons for comments related to the following top-level form.
<beach>
Often 4 for comments about the file contents.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
I thought it was ;;;; top level or main documentation, ;;; major sections, ;; above single line, ; tacked on to end of line
<aeth>
I only really see 4 at the top of a file, and not always. Or rarely for sections (not forms, large sections) within large (1000+ line) files.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Meanwhile in Clojure %70 of em don't come from Lisp so it's just ; for everything. :P
<aeth>
generally ;;; is if it starts the line with no indentation before it (e.g. comment to the next form), ;; is if it doesn't (inside of a form)
<aeth>
you can distinguish ;;; "belonging" to the following form or not by whether or not there's a blank line after it
<aeth>
which is probably why some see ;;;; as entirely redundant and wasteful of a precious character
<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: It seems like a bad idea to not respect Common Lisp conventions in order to please the users of some other programming language.
<beach>
One character horizontal space is not terribly wasteful. One line of vertical space is, because then there are fewer visible lines in a window.
<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: Furthermore, we have started using the convention that we name slots differently from the associated accessor.
<holycow>
is there a place that documents the conventions in a somewhat complete way?
<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: The reason is that you want to discourage client code from using SLOT-VALUE, since slots are implementation details.
<aeth>
in other words, % in front of the slot names, e.g. %x
<aeth>
because % is private-by-convention
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<aeth>
like Python's __x__ or however many __s they decided to use
<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: As aeth says, the % convention is what I (and many others) use.
<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: Another convention that I sometimes see use <mumble>-OF for the accessor and <mumble> for the slot. The important thing is that the name of the slot is not exported.
<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: And you don't need DUMMY-FUN. You can use (CONSTANTLY NIL).
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Interesting, I've seen the % but not OF suffix.
<aeth>
another thing you should do is defgeneric for every defmethod
<aeth>
though whether or not you want to use a defmethod or defun is up to what your architecture winds up being
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Oh! I didn't realize constantly was available. I was thinking it was an alexandria thing.
<beach>
Yes, definitely a DEFGENERIC form for each generic function.
<beach>
,(funcall (constantly 234) 1 2 3 4 5 6)
<ixelp>
=> 234
<aeth>
imo, you should do a DEFMACRO define-turtle-function
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Thanks for the tips, I'd like to get into a CL job if I can find one. I'm out of work now as a Clojure programmer. SO this critique helps my code look better.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
I prefer CLOS to duck typed hashmap literals all over. ;)
<beach>
Pleasure. And good luck with your job search.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Just PM me if you've got leads! Heheh.
* Pixel_Outlaw
rattles a tin cup
<beach>
I think Siscog is always recruting.
<beach>
*recruiting
<beach>
And [the company in Marbella the name of which I always forget].
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Cool, thanks. I'm in Montana so I'm limited but willing. :)
<beach>
RavenPack.
<aeth>
As mentioned earlier, what you can do is DEFMETHOD with an ERROR (define a custom DEFINE-CONDITION for that ERROR) on the T class or a DEFUN that begins with a WHEN that ERRORs if it's not the correct type... which one is up to whether or not you want/need it to be generic with the functionality of the method. If you generate the boilerplate with a DEFINE-TURTLE-FUNCTION macro, you only have to refactor
<aeth>
one location either way.
<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: Oh, then I definitely recommend moving to either Lisbon or Marbella. Europe is a great place.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
It seems Lisp in general may be larger in Europe.
<beach>
Wouldn't surprise me.
<beach>
One more remark: There is no reason for a parameter name such as TURT.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
In the US companies seem to have gotten really cautious post COVID and now are consolidating into C# and Java (which killed my team when they took away our Clojure permission despite it being 60% of our services at work)
<beach>
Especially since it is close to TURD. Just use the name of the type (TURTLE TURTLE)
<Pixel_Outlaw>
ok
<Pixel_Outlaw>
I almost used T but you know...that don't work so hot. ;)
<beach>
Same for DEG.
<beach>
Definitely not one-letter names, other than things like X and Y.
<holycow>
anagement killed off a team that brought in 60% of business? what?
<holycow>
wow
<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: OK, I think that sums up my remarks for now.
<pranav>
I've also seen names sandwitched between % signs, like %name% for special local variables in the codebase for Nyxt web browser. I'm curious if anyone anyone else subscribes to that convention? (Or if it steps over your preferred % convention)
<aeth>
in general, there are two uses for one-letter names: ones that take their names from physics/math (except, obviously, T) and ones that are iteration variables (usually I, J, etc.)
<aeth>
both of which are probably straight from whatever algorithm you're reading
<beach>
Right, I and J, but I was referring to function parameters.
<aeth>
yes
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
I thought %foo% meant "don't adjust this directly unless you REALLY know what you're doing" even outside CLOS.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
thanks beach I'll save this chat and adjust tomorrow.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
& aeth
<beach>
Pixel_Outlaw: No need to save. This channel is logged.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Oh boy, so my profanity is saved forever eh? :)
<aeth>
not only that, it's permanently associated with your real name, "Pixel_O..."
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Pixel_Outhouse.
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<foretspaisibles>
Could someone point me to an opensource project using CLSQL as an ORM? I see myself adding methods to CLSQL:UPDATE-RECORDS-FROM-INSTANCE :BEFORE to properly handle join slots and it looks like I am not using CLSQL in the best way. So I'm looking for realistic examples.
<beach>
foretspaisibles: Why are you using SQL?
<foretspaisibles>
That looked convenient at a first glance, but maybe I should reconsider that alltogether.
<beach>
I see.
<beach>
Is your data set big?
<foretspaisibles>
Certainly not, I'm drafting a sort of "TERRAFORM" in CL, so I do not expect the data set to be larger than a few hundred instances, worst-case a few thousands.
<beach>
In cases like that, I often just invent some syntax like [<class-name> :<initarg1> <value1> ...] and use PRINT to save the entire object graph to a file. Then to read it back, I define a reader macro associated with [ that basically just does (apply #'make-instance (read-delimited-list...)).
<foretspaisibles>
SQL seems convenient to easily prepare some reports, maybe across data sets.
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<beach>
Ah, yes, maybe so.
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<foretspaisibles>
So your approach is usually defining a PRINT-OBJECT method that honous the *PRINT-READABLY* flag? That could work, but my data is not tree-like and has shared parts.
<beach>
Sharing and DAG structure and even circularity is not a problem. PRINT and READ handle those with #n= and #n#.
<beach>
That's why I use it. It is extremely convenient.
<beach>
As you can see, there is both sharing and circularity.
<ixelp>
Gsharp/Scores/bach262.gsh at master · robert-strandh/Gsharp · GitHub
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<foretspaisibles>
Thank you for the reminder, I totally forgot that@
<foretspaisibles>
That's super useful input!
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<beach>
Oh, good!
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<beach>
And I set *PACKAGE* to the keyword package when I print so that I get package prefixes on all symbols.
<foretspaisibles>
That's also a great hint.
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<beach>
foretspaisibles: One more thing. I don't use slots because they are implementation details that can change over time, so I use initargs instead. That means you must define a method on a generic function specialized to each class you have. That method determines the important initargs and the corresponding values.
<beach>
foretspaisibles: You can study the code in Gsharp. It is only a few lines long.
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<ixelp>
SICL/Code/Cleavir/Input-output/io.lisp at master · robert-strandh/SICL · GitHub
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<foretspaisibles>
This is a great reference, thank you. It bring a question: many codebases are using constructors, following the style of CL (MAKE-INSTANCE, MAKE-*) and of Sonja Keene's book. Why do you prefer a custom syntax over relying on such constructors?
<foretspaisibles>
Is that mostly a matter of taste, and slightly more generic, or are there deeper reasons?
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<beach>
I found that such constructors create too many constraints.
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<beach>
Often, the class to instantiate depends on some parameter, but such constructors make the class fixed.
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<beach>
So I go by the conventions in the CLIM II specification where the class, the initargs, and some accessors/operators are public.
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<nij->
Sometimes asdf or quickload cannot find a system under local-projects. And the problem goes away after I delete system local-projects/system-index.txt ... Why is that? Is this a bug?
* nij-
will read log.
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<kanuba>
Quicklisp is limited. You can read about it in the toplevel comments of its local-projects.lisp
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<MetaYan>
nij: Using which Lisp implementation? For example, SBCL scans symbolic links in local-projects, while CCL skips them.
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<ixelp>
Cleavir/BIR/Visualizer at main · s-expressionists/Cleavir · GitHub
<younder>
Yeah and it uses dot. It will just be modified to use cl-dagre instead
<beach>
Oh, it uses dot? I am surprised.
<bike>
um, does it use dot? i haven't dug into the code or anything, but it doesn't have anything that could call external programs as a dependency.
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<beach>
I didn't know that CLIM could display dot stuff.
<younder>
Well it is McClim that call's dot, but yeah
<pranav>
mcclim-dot was added recently
<beach>
Interesting.
<bike>
the visualizer uses closeau. does closeau use dot?
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<beach>
I doubt it.
<beach>
scymtym is away for a few days, so we won't know for sure until he is back.
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<younder>
Well it shouldn't be too much work to make it a slottable component (bridge pattern)
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<younder>
There might still be cases where you want mcclim-dot. dot has a lot of capabilities that cl-dagre does not (yet)
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<younder>
Still it saves the time of translating to graphviz format writing it to disk running a shell command and then reading that back in. We can do it all in memory.
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<cstml>
Hi all, is there a way to see (SBCL) the current size of the image I'm REPL'ed in?
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<younder>
cstml: (room)
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<cstml>
younder: thanks! (with-output-to-string (*standard-output*) (cl:room)) is spot on
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<Shinmera>
org.shirakumo.machine-state:gc-room
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<Shinmera>
or org.shirakumo.machine-state:process-room, depending on what is meant by "size of the image"
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