<Shinmera>
skin: using established restart names has the advantage that it integrates with debuggers more nicely, but has the disadvantage that you might shadow others.
<Shinmera>
not that you can entirely shadow a restart, it just makes it more cumbersome
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<nij->
The description section and the note section contradict. I should disregard the note section?
<nij->
Desc: "The type of an array that is not displaced to another array, has no fill pointer, ..."
<nij->
Notes: "It is implementation-dependent whether displaced arrays, vectors with fill pointers, or arrays that are actually adjustable are simple arrays."
<beach>
There is no contradiction, but the Notes section is not normative.
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<bike>
what the description is saying is that (typep an-undisplaced-no-fill-pointer-etc-array 'simple-array) is true. it's not saying that other arrays are not simple arrays.
<nij->
No contradiction? The description says a simple array must have those properties, while the notes section says it's up to the implementation.
<nij->
huh? lemme see and think
<beach>
It does not say that.
<bike>
the notes section says that it's implementation dependent whether arrays that _are_ displaced etc are simple arrays.
<bike>
the description says that arrays that _aren't_ displaced etc are simple arrays.
<nij->
Ok I see. SUBTYPE just means a math subset.
<bike>
it could all probably still be reworded, since this confuses everybody who reads it
<nij->
No, I think it's my fault. It's pretty clear. I didn't fully understand what subtype is.
<nij->
If reading subtype as subset, it makes sense 100%.
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<bike>
like you're not the only person who's asked about this
<beach>
Yeah, I was confused in the beginning too.
<nij->
Right. It could be better worded. (But formally it makes sense, unlike some of the other issues I brought up. e.g. inline.)
<nij->
I can write this up as an WSCL too. Thanks!
<beach>
nij-: The INLINE thing has to be read with a background in programming-language implementation. After all, the standard is meant mainly for such people.
<nij->
Why isn't it possible that INLINE is really meant for function objects instead of names?
<nij->
After all, aren't the most important things function objects themselves, instead of their names (which could be 1-to-many)?
<nij->
I can tell that could be some conventional practice, but the assumption looks very weird to me.
<nij->
(Or at least maybe there should be a way to inline for both cases.)
<bike>
because in the common use of inline, no function object actually exists at compile time.
<bike>
like i said before.
<beach>
Because if you have a file that has (declaim inline foo) (defun foo () ...) (defun bar (foo ...)) then FOO doesn't exist when the compiler must process the call to be inlined.
<nij->
I think you're talking about the same thing. Yeah, normally that's not needed. I see.
<nij->
(I still wonder why not though, as that's just for "normally".)
<nij->
(why not though.. if there's no obvious penalty allowing this)
<beach>
Because the compiler does not execute the code that creates FOO, it just compiles it.
<beach>
FOO is not created until the FASL file is loaded.
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<nij->
Right, normally. But couldn't some functions be available at compile time already? And the user wants that function to be inlined later in the file?
<bike>
that would almost always be covered by the inlining process that doesn't rely on the function existing
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<nij->
Besides using ITERATE:ITER, is there any possibility to extend/edit the grammar of LOOP in a less intrusive way?
<nij->
(If you're curious why I ask, consider two examples: https://bpa.st/YAXQ . I think the second one is many times better.)
<ixelp>
View paste YAXQ
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* nij-
will read log
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<reb>
nij: I don't know what you mean by "a less intrusive way". Some implementations of LOOP support extending it in various ways, just as ITER allows extensions.
<bike>
not very often used, though.
<bike>
sbcl has the for-as-sequence extension, but it looks pretty closely integrated into the source
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<yitzi>
nij-: There is an extension mechanism for Khazern with an example for sequences, khazern-sequence. Its not documented, but fairly simple.
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<dlowe>
Shinmera: okay, I'm really impressed with FOR. Thank you!
<Shinmera>
oh?
<dlowe>
Shinmera: Separating bindings and body makes it extremely clear and leans on prior forms like DO. Binding via (name function args) works really well both for clarity and simplicity.
<Shinmera>
Yeah, it works pretty well for a lot of cases
<dlowe>
Shinmera: I like the python-like iterator protocol as a generic fallback
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<dlowe>
Nothing to add. This should have been in the standard instead of DO or LOOP
<Shinmera>
Ah, high praise I see :)
<Shinmera>
I agree on DO, maybe not on LOOP.
<dlowe>
My fantasy new lisp has this built in
<Shinmera>
my personal... happy thing about that project is the way I murdered &aux in the bindings definition protocol :v
<Shinmera>
It's kind of analogous to with-gensyms, but emitted around the loop body.
<Shinmera>
finally, it's useful \o/
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<yitzi>
dlowe: I wrote an equivilent to LOOP kind of like Shinmera's for but more of a one-to-one with LOOP. I haven't submitted quicklisp, but its kind of interesting. https://github.com/yitzchak/hoop
<ixelp>
GitHub - yitzchak/hoop: Common Lisp iteration made more hoopy
<Shinmera>
lord, when did I write FOR
<Shinmera>
8 years ago?????
<Shinmera>
what the fuck
<Shinmera>
oh god I'm turning to dust
<dlowe>
you only get more dusty
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<dlowe>
it's not so bad
<Shinmera>
A friend of mine told me he thought I looked like I was 16 so I guess I at least have that going for me
<Shinmera>
But I can definitely feel my brain turning to dust
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<Shinmera>
Anyway, anyone else getting their dust carried over to Vienna?
<Krystof>
o/
<Shinmera>
Excellent, I shall have to bother you once again :)
<Krystof>
there's a queue
<Krystof>
or a stack, or a heap, or something
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<Shinmera>
I have several wishes for SBCL, though the biggest issue is going to be me remembering them
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<Shinmera>
If things go real well, charles and I will be able to leak some secret project stuff though, wowow
<Shinmera>
you, too, can witness me breaking NDAs live at SBCL'25!
<nij->
Shinmera For is cool. Thanks!
<Krystof>
Shinmera: it's going to be thrilling :-)
<nij->
yitzi Thanks! I will check it up.
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<nij->
Shinmera Do you release your test cases (if any) else where?
<Shinmera>
test cases?
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<nij->
Yeah, tests for your code.
<Shinmera>
there's none for FOR, evidently
<nij->
:-O I see.
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<Shinmera>
is that... surprising?
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<nij->
Yeah.. to me. My brain is too small to control all edge cases.
<nij->
I wish one day my skill will rise to a level where I don't have to care about writing tests any more.
<Shinmera>
I hardly ever write tests. Most of my projects only receive very minor changes post-release, so there's not much to regression test
<Shinmera>
Also I'm lazy and writing tests is so boring it makes me want to die
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<nij->
I can relate. But your project seems stable. That's fine enough.
<Shinmera>
I have far too many of them for more than a handful of them to be unstable :v
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<nij->
amazin
<nij->
amazing'
<nij->
Wow, I just realized that iterate has a macro DEFSYNONYM. e.g. (defsynonym summing sum). So for what I want, I should be able to do (defsynonym summing :summing) and that's it.
* nij-
doesn't understand why loop doesn't use keywords as loop keywords...
<Shinmera>
because why bother, it's not extensible, so there's no need to worry about symbol aliasing or anything. just use the string name.
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<nij->
If a package doesn't want to use CL fully, that's problematic.
<nij->
And it's just not about CL:LOOP. I'm talking about ITER and FOR too. Don't get me wrong though, they are great. Just that I have my stupid opinion on what a lang should be.
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<Shinmera>
huh?
<Shinmera>
Actually don't elaborate, I don't care
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<reb>
nij: Do you know that you can use keywords in LOOP forms?
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* nij-
facepalm
<nij->
Yes. I misremembered. ITER doesn't use keywords, LOOP does.
<nij->
But LOOP doesn't support more parens..
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<nij->
Sorry, I was wrong up there.
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<nij->
FOR also supports keywords but not parens.
* nij-
facepalm again. sorry.
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<agm>
nij-: LOOP identifies its keywords through the symbol name, so you can also use keywords like :FOR, :ACROSS, etc.
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<nij->
Yeah. Sorry, I mixed my complaints toward all 3 of them together.
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<nij->
I'm constantly aware of my stupidity but that feeling strengthens by a lot whenever talking to some particular people though.
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<younder1>
Where does asdf look for lisp projects pr default. I thought it was under common-lisp.
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<younder1>
That's what i thought. But it cant find my project under there..
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<Shinmera>
your system name must match the file name of the asd
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<younder1>
Well it's ~/common-lisp/table-grinder/table-grinder.asd and I am doing (asdf:load-system :table-grinder)
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<random-nick>
and does it contain (defsystem table-grinder ...
<younder1>
(defsystem "table-grinder" ..., but yes
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<tok>
i have my projects under ~/common-lisp/local-projects/ and asdf works fine with it. don't know if local-projects is required or is that only a Quicklisp thing.
<Shinmera>
that's a quicklisp thing
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<random-nick>
no, ~/quicklisp/local-projects is a quicklisp thing
<random-nick>
asdf will descend into ~/common-lisp/local-projects/ so you don't need it
<random-nick>
but it's fine to have it like that
<aeth>
who would even think to create a ~/common-lisp/ if they didn't rtfm?
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<aeth>
my guess is most local projects are under something like ~/src/ or ~/git/ (the latter being a bit of a legacy of sorting by different VCS back when different VCSes existed)
<younder1>
Never the less asdf reports that it can't find it.
<younder1>
It just doesn't make any sense
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<younder1>
OK, it works now, it seems I had to restart the REPL before it saw it
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<tok>
random-nick: ah right, i think i just always install ql like (quicklisp-quickstart:install :path "~/common-lisp") out of habit, so everything CL related is in one place. dont' know if i should do it like this, but haven't had any issues at least.
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<holycow>
i ended up with a separate quicklisp and common-lisp folders
<holycow>
common-lisp folder is on an nfs share and i have run into issues with apps being able to save files over the nfs share so it helped having a local quicklisp folder so i can move a system there for troubleshooting
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<lispmacs[work]>
I found it, the one true lisp to rule them all: