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<younder>
Is there a good graph redering toools for CL/CLIM? All I find are interfaces to graphwiz that don't seem to have been updated the last 8 to 12 years.
<beach>
I don't think we have anything. I have suggested such a thing as a project for a while. The algorithm used by GraphViz are well documented, so it is "just" a matter of implementing them in Common Lisp.
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<nerap>
How do you usually invoke system executables from lisp? Or execute other shell commands?
<nerap>
Is there a de-facto standard library for that?
<beach>
I think ASDF has a module named UIOP that has a function for that.
<beach>
Try (apropos "run-program")
<nerap>
#'uiop:run-program is what I was looking for. thaks.
<beach>
Sure.
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<beach>
My SLIME session regularly (but not often) stops working with the message something like "connection closed unexpectedly". This is with SBCL 2.1.3. Why does this happen?
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<scymtym>
maybe the *inferior-lisp* buffer or the *slime-events* buffer has more information
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<beach>
I'll check those next time.
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<younder>
A Technique for Drawing Directed Graphs ..
<younder>
Lets see if we wan make a Lisp version
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<dbotton>
I thought the bonus section of the new CLOG Builder Master Class 2 would be something everyone would like to know about - I demonstrate adding a full Builder to any project - even non clog - and remotely connect and use from any browser even a chrome book (no emacs needed) and edit your lisp code etc. https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/1bycarq/clog_master_class_2_the_power_of_clog_builder/
<ixelp>
CLOG Master Class 2 - The Power of CLOG Builder - System Browser, Console and REPL (BONUS - Remote Builder over the Web) [...]
<dbotton>
It is like having SLIME but also pushing emacs through it :)
<holycow>
looking good, watching now. thanks!
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<pranav>
younder: There's also book on layered graph drawing by Kozo Sugiyama describing their algorithms. Title is Graph Drawing and Applications I think.
<holycow>
dbotton: what drives you to build all of this?
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<dbotton>
I love to create things that are useful to others, in particular if they can make a living with it
<dbotton>
holycow software is still one of the few fields where an individual can "make it"
<holycow>
forgive me for getting religious
<holycow>
but this seems like you are on a mission from god
<holycow>
one can permutate the word god in many different ways
<holycow>
it's like you have been sitting with this in your head for years and it is just pourin out
<dbotton>
lol
<holycow>
to translate all of that, this is not coming out of nowhere. these ideas seem fully formed to me.
<dbotton>
The same guy does the same job - 1 is a worked 1 is a professional and 1 has a calling, I strive to do everything in my life on the 3 tier
<dbotton>
I just love what I do and I can't wait to see what others will do with what I create
<dbotton>
I think everyone here is like that
<holycow>
the latter part is really true
<holycow>
this chan and #cschool are not actually irc channels
<holycow>
they are basically personalized vocational training
<holycow>
noob like me just have to ask and instant knowledge
<holycow>
as an aside, thank you for clog. having a tool that gives me instant visible response to my changes is what is helping me learn CL. thank you.
<kagevf>
I copy paste notes from these channels all the time :) a wealth of useful knowledge
<dbotton>
well I used CLOG to teach myself CL so fair enough :P
<holycow>
why CL? where did that fire come from? from what i read you have extensive and diverse programming knowledge. most people i meet never make it far enough to CL.
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<dbotton>
BSD/MIT licensed compilers (many) is what may me look, I was burned badly by GPL when a compiler vendor put GPL on their runtime
<dbotton>
prior to that a commercial company changed the run time licensing for their compiler and a had scrapped years of ork
<holycow>
that is so interesting
<dbotton>
In both cases Commercial and GPL they attacked what I wrote above - one man can make a difference principal
<dbotton>
a kid and a laptop or a retired old man can make a living with his skills
<dbotton>
when you encumber someone's tools you take away their means to feed themselves and family
<dbotton>
Common Lisp and most everyone through the years strived to create truly free sofrware
<dbotton>
Richard Stallman came from Lisp
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<dbotton>
he just never got it straight that you don't stop others from creating with free software
<holycow>
that has to be the most unique path to Lisp that I have ever read
<dbotton>
you encourage them to even write proprietary and to push back to the community the parts of their work that are tools to be free
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<holycow>
had ada or some other language had bsd clause licensing terms and Lisp only had GPL or great claused compilers, would you have used another language?
<dbotton>
it ends up holycow that lisp is amazing on its own I just didn't know
<holycow>
i know you created a precursor of CLOG in ada earlier
<dbotton>
I would not have touched lisp if it wasn't for ECL and SBCL
<holycow>
wow
<dbotton>
_and_ the fact that the full stack of packages relied on by CLOG or BSD/MIT
<dbotton>
I love GPL for end products
<holycow>
so, beyond compilers, what do you think of Lisp conceptually, as a syntax for organizing logic + math and as specific implementations?
<dbotton>
but not tools
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<dbotton>
It looks horrible, smells worse and tastes great - is like Kimchi
<holycow>
that is an interesting take on gpl vs bsd, Linus has the same perspective
<dbotton>
I honest wish I had learned CL earlier but the smell kept me away
<dbotton>
QuickLisp is a game changer for CL
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<dbotton>
had I come earlier to CL maybe I would never have stayed and appreciated it
<holycow>
xach was possessed by something in order to build that. he just dropped it on everyone one day
<holycow>
and asked for nothing in return
<dbotton>
So why ask me why I did it :) same as he and others here
<holycow>
your nick doesn't start with x :D
<dbotton>
meaning I think some of us have the need to give and drives us
<holycow>
from an entrepreneurial perspective, you have delivered a fully feature, full blown solution
<holycow>
there are many layers in that statement
<dbotton>
I have delivered many products
<holycow>
the first layer is you are doing it from the side of your table, you havbe a practice, you have rabbinical responsibilites, family, etc.
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<holycow>
the other layer is all of these ideas are fully formed, and they just appear
<dbotton>
If you mean with CLOG I have used it for some projects
<holycow>
then we get to the whole vc side of things which woudl be something like, somone with your skills and deep spiritual need to help everyone needs to be having conversations with certain caliber of people out there.
<dbotton>
If asking financial, I am not money driven
<holycow>
and so on
<holycow>
so it is interesting to hear peoples personal stories and perspectives. that is enlightening.
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<dbotton>
I do need to make a living, and eek by with my practice and some small computer jobs, and yes hope to make a little at some point with CLOG
<dbotton>
I find money to become an anti-motivation when you lose it, so better to concentrate on other things as money comes and goes
<dbotton>
and everything you do becomes successful
<dbotton>
anyways, this is a CL channel and better it stays on topic :)
<dbotton>
I just answered here since I think they deserve as much or more credit for anything I have done
<holycow>
:) thank you for engaging and answering my questions. CLOG is incredibly important work and I appreciate everything that you have brought to the table here.
<pranav>
dbotton: I wonder if you got a chance to try running CLOG on wasm using ECL.
<dbotton>
pranav I conceptually figured it out and so can be done (holycow is correct that I fully program a system in my head first or on paper, ie I engineer it) but the current state of WASM ECL means not high enough priority yet
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<dbotton>
someday will do
<pranav>
What would you want from ECL on wasm to make it high priority?
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<holycow>
pranav: why is wasm that important in your opinion?
<holycow>
how would you envision using it?
<pranav>
Is it about the runtime (performance)? or some API interfacing with javascript?
<dbotton>
holycow ecl on wasm is a major backdoor to mobile dec
<dbotton>
dev
<holycow>
i don't believe you can get native integration into mobile that way, such as notifications for example, am i wrong?
<dbotton>
you are wrong
<holycow>
really?
<dbotton>
you can have it all
<dbotton>
yip
<dbotton>
you can do it already with CLOG and a simple wrapper app
<dbotton>
but you need to be connected
<dbotton>
you can already just deploy on ECL or SBCL with out need for wasm too
<holycow>
so, in theory, i could write a client for a web service in clog, deploy via ecl to wasm and deploy the client remotely and my mobile app only needs to be a link on their device?
<dbotton>
but wasm just makes it super convenient
<pranav>
dbotton: Have you seen Gleefre's work on linking SBCL shared libs with android apps?
<dbotton>
no but iOS and android are not difficult now no real need to use shared libs
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<pranav>
I was able to build the example android apps, and it's much more performant than ECL (wasm or not) on android.
<dbotton>
with CLOG you can use the current JS bridges to the native mobil stuff
<dbotton>
pranav for sure
<dbotton>
I just don't have the hours needed to put the work to build some samples and tutorials
<pranav>
I see.
<dbotton>
but you can do a sbcl based app on android and ios now with what exists
<holycow>
amazing
<holycow>
i have to try that next
<dbotton>
and use the JS bridges to do everyone API on iOS and Android to deliver fully native CLOG based apps
<dbotton>
So that sort of work is time consuming and so lower on my list of priorities
<holycow>
how much do you need per month to work on clog full time? ballpark
<holycow>
i don't want to know your private budget, just curious. note: i don't have the ability to sponsor, just curious
<dbotton>
you can PM me
<holycow>
fair
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<dbotton>
pranav, Well my current plans have me reworking the GUI builder for speed and better layouts, data modeling tools and a tools for large scale Common Lisp teams and development
<dbotton>
they interest me more than mobile dev so why lower, money would be the likely big motivator to make me take time for mobile dev work
<dbotton>
as I would not stop my other work on CLOG
<dbotton>
so I would have to take time from other areas where I make my living
<pranav>
Sure. Glad to hear that there's so much already being done.
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<dbotton>
I need a Jobs I am more of a Wozniak :P
<holycow>
pranav: are you the guy working on ai / llm stuff?
<pranav>
holycow: I'm not. Although I'd like to, at some point.
<ixelp>
Beyond regular expressions: An introduction to parsing context-free grammars
<holycow>
sorry for the noise
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<gilberth>
In a nutshell: CFGs can count while regular expressions can't.
<gilberth>
Like parenthesis. CFGs can count parenthesis, regular expressions cannot. So when when you have anything recursive to parse, you're out of luck with regular expressions.
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<holycow>
interesting, thank you.
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