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<nij->
Question. When the compiler must evaluate a form at compile time, how does it evaluate? Must it compile the form and execute the compiled result? Or could it use an interpretter? Is this behavior specified in the standard?
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<pillton>
nij-: Both are possible. The standard doesn't specify how it must be done.
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<yitzi>
Also, look at the glossary entry for "evaluation"
<pillton>
nij-: Section 3.2 of the standard is good as well.
<yitzi>
And also the dictionary entry for eval-when
<yitzi>
Please note in the definition of evaluation: "...such execution might be implemented directly in one step by an interpreter or in two steps by first compiling the form and then executing the compiled code; this choice is dependent both on context and the nature of the implementation, but in any case is not in general detectable by any program. ..."
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<pillton>
clhs 3.1
<nij->
I have been reading 3.2 the whole week..
<pillton>
How do you insert a link to the CLHS now?
<nij->
Oh, thanks for the quote, yitzi.
<nij->
Insert a link?
<pillton>
From CLHS 3.1: Evaluation: "Evaluation is the process by which a program is executed in Common Lisp. The mechanism of evaluation is manifested both implicitly through the effect of the Lisp read-eval-print loop, and explicitly through the presence of the functions eval, compile, compile-file, and load. Any of these facilities might share the same execution strategy, or each might use a different one. The behavior of a conforming program
<pillton>
processed by eval and by compile-file might differ; see Section 3.2.2.3 (Semantic Constraints)."
<pillton>
Years ago you could type clhs 3.1 and a link to the standard would be posted in the channel by a bot.
<nij->
So there are #'eval, #'compile, and #'compile-file.
<nij->
And the standard doesn't specify any coherence among their semantics?
<nij->
For example, I would expect that (funcall (compile-file (lambda () FORM)) should have the same behavior of (eval FORM).
<pillton>
Of course it specifies their semantics. It has a definition of a conforming program.
<nij->
Oops! Typo. s/compile-file/compile/ in the last sentence.
<yitzi>
In general, the spec leaves ambiguity where optimization is possible by an implementation.
<yitzi>
The spec wasn't written like the w3 specs, as documentation of "existing practices," but as a comprimise by actual implementers, i.e. companies and researchers that had actual experience with the difficulties and issues associated with writing an efficient LISP implementation.
<nij->
w3? w3c?
<yitzi>
yes
<yitzi>
Its called "common" because thats what they could get everyone to agree upon.
<nij->
"everyone" :-)
<yitzi>
The committee and the industry reps, in other words. It was very expensive to do at the time.
<pillton>
nij-: I think EVAL and COMPILE differ in their requirement to apply compiler macros so I don't think they would be the same.
<pillton>
Also, (compile nil (lambda () FORM)) is different to (compile nil '(lambda () FORM)).
<nij->
How was teh X3J13 committee formed?!
<nij->
From what I read, people understood some drawbacks in CLTL1..
<nij->
But forming such a committee is quite expensive. There must be some main funders behind.
<nij->
pillton The compiler macros are supposed to have the same effect of the corresponding function. So except this, the rest shoudl still be the same?
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<pillton>
It depends on your definition of same. A compiler macro may cache a value in the global environment for example. The cached value may have no effect on the result of the form, but the environment is certainly impacted.
<nij->
I see what you mean now.
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<pillton>
I would see the most differences between the interpreter and compiler in CMUCL. I know SBCL has an interpreter but I don't know enough to know when it is used in preference to the compiler.
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<beach>
pillton: I have a use case for it. As part of the SICL bootstrapping procedure, I generate code that can be quite large, even from relatively modest source code. Compiling it takes a lot of time, and it is going to be executed only once. I found that the interpreter performs much better than COMPILE+FUNCALL.
<beach>
nij-: People worked for companies and universities, and they would provide the time for the members to participate in the committee.
<pillton>
beach: Right. Interesting.
<beach>
pillton: Yeah, in fact, COMPILE probably triggers some quadratic behavior in the compiler, so it is not just a minor advantage to use the interpreter. The compiler is so slow that it is unusable.
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<beach>
Though, at some point I should apply some optimizations to decrease the size of the generated code.
<pillton>
beach: Regarding my comment about CMUCL: I meant encountering the differences in the process of evaluation rather than the performance of the evaluation. Remember seeing compiler macros not being expanded in some situations when they were on other implementations.
<pillton>
Bah.. I remember seeing ...
<beach>
Yes, I see.
<pillton>
It was awesome from a personal development point of view. I had to re-read bits of the standard to understand where I got the wrong understanding.
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<pillton>
The joys of having a standard with multiple implementations.
<beach>
Yes, I know what you mean.
<pillton>
FYI I am not being sarcastic. It is great to see.
<beach>
I understood.
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<pillton>
On a completely different matter. I meant to raise the short form of DEFSETF. I don't think the standard specifies what the short form should do for the form which evaluates to the value to be assigned to the place.
<beach>
Creating a Common Lisp implementation is another way of forcing a thorough read of the standard. :)
<beach>
Of course, reading the standard also makes one discover the way too many cases of undefined behavior, hence WSCL.
<pillton>
Yeah, which is why I raised the short form issue of DEFSETF. I thought it might want to be added WSCL.
<beach>
You can write a short GitHub "issue" for it, and someone will have a look and write it up later.
<pillton>
Ok!
<aeth>
the most underspecified part is apparently conditions, or, rather, which conditions are signaled
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<beach>
aeth: But those are not the most serious ones. The most serious ones are all the cases where it is undefined behavior if you pass an object of the wrong type.
<beach>
aeth: Like AREF not being given an array, for instance.
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<pillton>
beach: I always thought that was weird especially when (safety 3) is in effect.
<beach>
Absolutely, and the WSCL issue suggests signaling a type error then. I believe every major implementation does that.
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<nij->
By the way.. should it be an WCSL issue that whenever an undefined behavior is hit, at least a harmless warning should be emit?
<beach>
I think that depends on the situation. If the implementation has to test some object type anyway, it might as well signal an error in safe code.
<nij->
Yeah.. hence "at least" a warning.
<beach>
I haven't thought of other situations much, but maybe so.
<beach>
nij-: The thing is, though, that WSCL is not trying to impose much new stuff. It is mainly documenting existing behavior.
<beach>
That's how I hope it is going to be easier for an implementation to adopt.
<nij->
I see.
<beach>
In the case of wrong object type, some implementations signal a simple error, and the WSCL issue might suggest a TYPE-ERROR, but that's a minor change for the maintainers.
<nij->
Right. I think it's better to delegate this task to the ANSI tester. Ideally, it should test the undefined behavior and see how an implementation behaves.
<nij->
Besides strenghening the standard (e.g. wscl), I think it's also very important to improve the test suite, and cross reference parts between it and the standard.
<beach>
I suspect the goal of the ANSI test suite is to just report non-conforming behavior, so it would be hard then to test undefined behavior.
<nij->
Right.
<nij->
How does other lang afford having an updated standard every now and then? To fully immerse oneself into one single standard is hard enough..
<beach>
They have no choice. Since they don't require the compiler to be present at run time and they have no macros, the only way to improve the language is to modify the standard.
<nij->
:-O
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<nij->
However, scheme is a lisp, but it also keeps evolving..
<beach>
That's for a different reason I think.
<nij->
Also, how does requiring the compiler to be present at run time helps stablizing a standard?
<beach>
But partly the same. The original standard did not require the compiler to be present, and they probably didn't have macros either. Originally, Scheme was designed to be a small language, but then ambitions increased.
<beach>
With the compiler present, you can get good performance of new operators defined by user macros if you define those operators right.
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<nij->
I see.
<beach>
Oh, also compile-time evaluation. Think of C++ templates. They are basically special-purpose macros that require a compile-time evaluation.
<nij->
I never understand templates. But I think they have merits too? You can check more stuff at compile-time?
<beach>
They have merits, sure. But the way they are implemented is a mess because of the restrictions on the language (no macros, no compile-time evaluation).
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<nij->
I see.
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<pillton>
C++ templates have a restricted form of evaluation though. You can't for example open a file or print a message to the terminal during the expansion of the template without implementing that support in the compiler.
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<beach>
Sure.
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<younder>
C++ also has ambitions to throw away C headers. In 2026 the language might have lambda's ready for generic thread execution. Kinda the same we has had in Lisp with lparelell since 2015 or so.
<younder>
sorry lparellel
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<jiny>
in emacs slime debug how can I continue with different value that caused an error? I see it in bactrace 0: ..
<beach>
You can do that only if there is a restart that allows it.
<beach>
Not all errors are continuable.
<beach>
... and it is not related to SLIME. It is what the author of the code chose to signal.
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<jiny>
ok thank you. case by case? I thought I can do it when I insert break line above it.
<decweb>
If you're the author of the code, there are some convenenience forms like `check-type` which will signal restartable conditions, and might at least introduce you to the topic and you can look at its code.
<beach>
jiny: If you replace your BREAK by a CHECK-TYPE as decweb suggests, then you can alter the value in the debugger.
<beach>
jiny: And notice that the type given to check-type can be very specific, e.g., (NOT (EQL 234)).
<beach>
jiny: It is not hard. If you have a variable FOO that takes on the value 234 and you don't want that, instead of (BREAK), write (CHECK-TYPE FOO (NOT (EQL 234)))
<jiny>
check-type looks like mostly concerned about type mismatches. yes.. thank you.
<beach>
jiny: But a type in Common Lisp can be any set of values.
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<beach>
jiny: So if you receive an odd number but you want it to be even, then use the type (SATISFIES EVENP).
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<jiny>
thank you.
<beach>
Sure. Good luck!
<beach>
jiny: You may want to know about #clschool.
<scymtym>
it is also possible to restart function calls (key r) or force function calls to return (key R) for a subset of all function calls on the stack (not just the top one). calls for which this is possible are highlighted by SLIME (in green by default, i think)
<scymtym>
(restarting function calls will not undo any side effects so detailed knowledge about the functions in question is required)
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<nij->
Q. provide, require, *module* are all deprecated. What should I use instead in vanilla CL (e.g. if it doesn't have asdf).
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<bike>
asdf
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<bike>
it's a library, not an extension. just load it.
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<nij->
What does asdf use under the hood? Does it use *module* and provide?
<beach>
No, just COMPILE-FILE and LOAD.
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<nij->
Ah, I see.
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<bike>
all the non-implementation-defined parts of provide and require do is put something on the *modules* list, and LOAD a file if the module hasn't already been added, respectively
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<nij->
In the convention, a single semicolon denotes the start of a single line comment, appended after a line of code.
<nij->
However, I saw in many places where people use a slightly stricter rule. I wonder if that's conventional.
<nij->
Namely, there tends to be no space immediately after a single semicolon.
<nij->
So for example, instead of
<nij->
(+ 1 1) ; addition
<nij->
I tend to see
<nij->
(+ 1 1) ;addition
<nij->
Is this conventional?
<younder>
A double semicolon is a in function comment. triple semicolon a data structure comment and four semicolons file comment. All semicolons more than one fill a entire line.
<nij->
(thanks.. but that's not what I asked..)
<younder>
;add or ; add could go either way
<younder>
In emacs C-A-\ auto indents function or file. So just see what that does..
<nij->
right..
<younder>
I'd use a space after ; because I think it's more readable. But I don't see and rule written in stone anywhere.
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<Farooq>
Just added myself to the younglispers list
<Farooq>
One day I'm gonna learn ARM ASM and improve SBCL... one day...
<nij->
Farooq <3
<nij->
You (We) can do it!
<younder>
The big rule is gang up all the end parenthesizes on one line, not C style.
<younder>
but as you have seen a ton source by now nij I am sure you know that
<nij->
:-) Yep
<younder>
Remember Lispers pride themselves in how terse CL is if we were to indent like Java.. it would hardly seem shorter ;)
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<nij->
gilberth - https://novaspec.org/ Seeing only one entry on this page.. makes me wondering.. will there be more specs coming up (in principle, no hurries)?
<ixelp>
Common Lisp Nova Spec
<nij->
e.g. spec or ref pages for alexandria etc.
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<younder>
To -but in- seems to me to be more extended core modules like closer-mop ioup and asdf
<decweb>
In the 80's nobody had 4k displays, 80 character displays were the norm for terminals, so suppressing the space after the semicolon in an end-of-line comment made perfect sense.
<decweb>
The de-facto Clojure style guide recommends a space after the semicolon, though I frequently use whatever emacs gives me, which is the old no-space version usually.
<aeth>
Most people still don't have 4K displays. The Steam HW survey puts it at 3.44% and this is self-selecting for PCs good enough to play Steam games on them. The 3.46% 1366x768 craptop resolution is probably still 10%+ in reality.
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<younder>
Event at HDMI resolution 80 characters a line is a bit anemic you could 130 or so
<younder>
The required minimum is still 800x600 for Ubuntu desktop
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<younder>
I have a 2K display 3880x1440. This is not unusual for desktops today. Laptops have less space.. Even if you increase the resolution alla retina you need to increase the font size as well.''
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<younder>
I find HDMI adequate for a 18" or less monitor for 2K you want 35", but whatever
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
For what it's worth, I purchased a Framework laptop and the display is somewhere between HD and 4K and it is terrible in Linux. The display is good, but it's to high resolution for the size it is. You can have half your apps scale correctly or manually set font sizes where available or have the window manager double the screen scale giving you a really tiny Windows XP era resolution.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
*too
<Pixel_Outlaw>
My eyesight is poor and I'm in my 30s so anything beyond 1920x1080 has diminishing returns.
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<reb>
Pixel_Outlaw: I have a Chuwi Lapbook 12.3 which has a 12.3 inch display that's 2736 by 1824, 267 PPI. I do not use scaling, but instead configure Gnome to use a larger cursor size, scale text by 1.25, etc.
<reb>
I also use the "Large Text" accessibility setting.
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<holycow>
everyone here codes on their laptops?
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<Inline>
kinda
<dcb>
probably not everyone
<reb>
holycow: I have a 4K monitor that I attach my laptop to.
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<holycow>
reb: i do the same.
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<Inline>
how do you attach, over cable ?
<Inline>
i don't get why we have to use cables still
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
@reb Yeah, I'm using Mate on Mint and it's not as configurable.
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<reb>
Pixel_Outlaw: Anyway, with the configs I mentioned the laptop screen is OK, my external monitor shows things a bit large, but then I turn off the "large font" accessibility setting ...