<mrcom>
Load in a 500-byte interpreter, call (FORMAT "~?" ...) or something, slurp in *standard-input*, boot-load rest of payload from following IRC messages.
<gilberth>
mrcom: Won't work.
<bike>
i wanna see the 500 byte common lisp interpreter.
<mrcom>
Plan B then :)
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<mrcom>
Not full CL, just enough to load the rest.
<gilberth>
Load from where?
<bike>
that's not as funny
<mrcom>
From the following IRC messages.
<gilberth>
mrcom: The following message would spawn a new process.
<gilberth>
The Lisp has no access to the serial port.
<mrcom>
Even if the first one hasn't finished yet? Good design.
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<nij->
500 bytes? How is it possible?
<bike>
evidently it is not.
<bike>
you can look up the term "shellcode" if you want to learn about extremely constrained invaders.
<nij->
Questions about how Quicklisp handle dependencies:
<nij->
1. Say A and B depend on an important system C, C upgrades, while A and B are not upgraded for a while. How does QuickLisp choose between AB and C?
<nij->
2. How many (CL-implementations * versions) do quicklisp test on each complete build?
<nij->
Anyone knows what's the status of ecl->wasm via emscripten?
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<green_>
nij-, I can answer for ocicl. Lisp library APIs don't change all that often. Like ultralisp (I think), the ocicl backend checks every project for updates every 4 hours or so, and then tries to build and publish them (unless the project produces versioned releases -- but most don't).
<green_>
Maybe it's been dumb luck, but this hasn't been a problem in the year that ocicl has been around.
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<nij->
(Thanks for making ocicl!)
<nij->
Hmm green_ - This model is stable. But what if a very important library has to upgrade?
<nij->
That library has a large chance to not build, because it's too important (and many depends on it).
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<green_>
It's a fragile system in theory, but in practice it has been OK. ocicl allows you to fix on specific version in your own project, so you can always roll back library versions if you need to.
<green_>
If A depends on B, and B changes in a way that breaks A, then A will stop building on updates until it is updated.
<green_>
If you download the latest tag for each of A and B, you will also be in a broken state, but you can fix this by rolling back to the older version of B.
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<green_>
This could be improved, for sure, but so far it hasn't been worth the effort. CL is slow moving and people are generally good about preserving API compatibility.
<nij->
I see! Thanks!
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<beach>
mrcom: Using ON instead of IN won't make it loop over the longest list.
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<mrcom>
beach: I thought he wanted to abort if the lists were unequal.
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<mrcom>
Yeah, his example stops at the shorter, and asserts both-lists-are-exhausted.
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<beach>
You might be right.
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<dbotton>
Years ago someone posted a quick way to get the licenses of all the software your program is depending on, would anyone recall how to do this?
<dbotton>
found it (ql:quickload "print-licenses")
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<nij->
green_ I tested ocicl out. So far so good. I wonder if it warns the user that their current version specification would lead to a broken state?
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<yitzi>
nij-: The only way to enforce such a thing would be via ASDF version specifiers in :depend-on. I don't recall seeing any systems that do that. I am sure they are out there, but probably rare.
<nij->
Even so, there should usually be name clashes during load.
<yitzi>
And that assumes that ASDF enforces those version specifiers.
<nij->
Thus the questions -
<nij->
1. Is it possible to customize the reader (in a spec compliant way) so that whenever a symbol 'A:B' is read, automatically turn it into 'prefix-A:B'?
<nij->
2. Is it possible to customize the package dictionary (in a spec compliant way) so that whenever a package A is created, automatically change its name to 'prefix-A' [question 2.1]; and whenever the package uses a package B, forces it to use the package 'prefix-B' instead?
<nij->
..[question 2.2]
<yitzi>
So you are trying to do version management like npm?
<nij->
Even if these are resolved, loading different systems with non-idempotent side-effects could still be an issue. However, I don't think there's any way to resolve that. (rust seems to be accepting this fact.)
<nij->
yitzi I actually don't know how npm works.. but I think this is the sanest way.
<nij->
First-class global env may also help, but it's not here yet.
<yitzi>
meh. I have found that such tricks are unneeded.
<nij->
Are you on quicklisp, ultralisp, or ocicl?
<yitzi>
I have used all at various points. I usually use quicklisp. ocicl has potential, but the defaulting to installing systems in the local package directory is silly and wasteful.
<nij->
Disk is cheap.
<yitzi>
Or, don't use broken software.
<nij->
I understand that the current state maybe fine. But I also wish that the dependency can be more declarative - in order for the code to survive for many more years.
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<nij->
The asdf file you write today, which works today, may not work in the future. Simply because then the dep versions that work would be gone.
<nij->
But of course, I agree that this is "not necessary" (in the sense that a paper and a pencil forms a turing complete machine).
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<nij->
Anyway, I'm interested in the questions 1 and 2 above... if anyone knows the answer.. please let me know. Thanks :-)
<yitzi>
You can't really customize the reader like that. You can make reader macros, etc. I suggest reading the CLHS section on the reader.
<yitzi>
Technically, you can do such things with Eclector, but not with most built-in readers.
<nij->
After loading Eclector extrinsically to my sbcl, can I ask sbcl to use eclector as its default reader?
<nij->
Hmm.. Eclector returns concrete syntax tree that sbcl's compiler may not be able to understand.. I don't think it's really for extrinsic use. ...
<yitzi>
No. That would be loading intrinsically after bootstrapping. This is what I have called "shiming" in Incless/Inravina/Invistra/Khazern. As I have said before, it required detailed knowledge of how the system in question connects to the internals of the implementation. It is VERY fragile.
<nij->
Yeah.. I was thinking about what you said too. So I guess I can conclude Eclector currently won't be a solution to my questions.
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<nij->
So basically, by answering question 1 and 2 above, I hope there is a spec compliant way to achieve the following - between the start and the end of loading a system, "all packages involved" are prefixed with "PREFIX".
<nij->
(I need to go to work, and will come back later.)
<nij->
(I'll also read the log.)
<beach>
nij-: The standard-compliant part of Eclector does not return a CST but an S-expression.
<nij->
beach Thanks for clarification! (Still, that doesn't solve 1 and 2.)
<beach>
Right.
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<green_>
nij- ... no, it won't warn you about that. I consider this kind of failure relatively niche, and relatively easy to work around. Let's say alexandria suddenly decides to change APIs in an incompatible way. I believe the community (incl. myself) would correct by forking alexandria, or making sure their systems.csv files point to old versions, or similar.
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<green_>
The quicklisp approach of building distributions with version that are known to work with one another is how you would try to protect against that.
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<green_>
But I think developers want something more fast-moving, and like I said yesterday, we don't see much API breakage in the lisp community
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<green_>
yitzi: regarding project-local installations.. I agree with nij- , disk is incredibly cheap, and these packages are small.
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<green_>
If I have to decide between optimizing for disk space or optimizing for developer time, I would choose developer time!
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<nij->
And I'd choose the life length of the asdf files over disk space.
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<bike>
the important thing is that adding a few options to defpackage doesn't prevent any programs that don't use package local nicknames from running.
<beach>
Right, but in the case of DEFPACKAGE, the standard specifically says "Since implementations might allow extended options..."
<beach>
s/but/and/ I guess
<bike>
huh, so it does.
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<nij->
Huh! I see.
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<nij->
Is it prohibited by the standard for a package to have packages (instead of just having symbols)?
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<beach>
Not much is explicitly prohibited by the standard. Read the sections on conformance and extensions.
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<Farooq>
I had asked a question here a while ago and remained unanswered. Are there any Matrix communities dedicated to Common Lisp?
<paulapatience>
There is a Common Lisp room and a Lisp room on Matrix, but they are not very active
<Farooq>
less active than in here?
<paulapatience>
Yes
<paulapatience>
This place is bustling in comparison
<Farooq>
may I have their addresses please?
<paulapatience>
#common-lisp:matrix.org
<paulapatience>
and #lisp:matrix.org
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<younder>
There is a lisp room on discord that sees traffic
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<dbotton>
does any one know off had the lisp function that is equivelant of the c function system?
<Shinmera>
huh?
<Shinmera>
what is "the c function system"
* nij-
wonders the same
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<gilberth>
It's ISO C actually.
<nij->
(..oO "What's ISO C?")
<gilberth>
The standard C.
<nij->
But how does that relate to the "c function system"?
<Shinmera>
oh, <<the C function 'system'>>
<Shinmera>
uiop:run-program would be similar, but there's no direct equivalent
<Shinmera>
which imo is good, 'system' is pretty terrible
<gilberth>
Yes. I was about to say: One shouldn't use system(3) anyway because you pass a command and probably will miss escaping. Somewhat dangerous.
<Shinmera>
not to mention lots of ??? around platform portability
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* gilberth
believes the question was rather how to spawn a process in general.
<paulapatience>
Would it make sense to signal a cell-error in a sequence for which (setf sequence:elt) is forbidden?
<paulapatience>
The spec says cell-error is for errors occurring during location access, and the glossary entry for access seems to include both reading and writing.
<Shinmera>
no
<Shinmera>
elt says: Should signal an error of type type-error if index is not a valid sequence index for sequence.
<Shinmera>
cell-error is not a type-error
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<paulapatience>
Ah, but here the index could be valid.
<paulapatience>
It's just that it's impossible to write to the location.
<bike>
i think paulapatience is talking about a read only sequence.
<Shinmera>
ah. hm.
<paulapatience>
Yes, exactly
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<paulapatience>
(Because it's a C++ sequence that exposes its elements only as const pointers)
<bike>
and i don't think there's actually any precedent for this in the standard, since there aren't a lot of places that are truly read only.
<Shinmera>
aaah who cares, you can just write to it anyway :)
<Shinmera>
and yes, lisp has almost no places that are read-only
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<paulapatience>
Well, I will choose to interpret the cell-error entry as supporting my suggestion that it is right
<paulapatience>
It's not a big deal either way
<Shinmera>
yeah, not like the spec is great about being detailed with condition types anyway :/
<paulapatience>
Well, the error message is sadly uninformative: Condition of type CELL-ERROR was signaled.
<bike>
that's because cell-error is usually not instantiated directly. there are undefined-function, unbound-variable, and such instead.
<bike>
in your case you would presumably want a condition type called read-only-sequence or something.
<paulapatience>
Oh, I see
<paulapatience>
Ah, that would be better
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<Farooq>
younder, Discord bad
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<dbotton>
Thanks! (sorry was with patients)
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<younder>
dbottom: Rabbi, doctor, engineer.. sounds like you have your hands full.
<dbotton>
true
<dbotton>
but busy people get things done :)
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<jmercouris>
do busy people get things done? Or do things get busy people done?
<edgar-rft>
busy people have no time to get things done
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* younder
kick edgar-rft with his clogs
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<nij->
Busy people get other people to have their things done.
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<dbotton>
<edgar-rft> people have not time, great people always make time
<dbotton>
sorry no time
<dbotton>
I though can say most assuredly that busy people stink at looking before hitting enter.
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