<beach>
tourjin: I recommend you join #clschool which is meant for basic questions like this.
<tourjin>
I mean if somewhere in sb-ext there already rename function defined i'd like to see what it is. ...oh ok i type in commonlisp channel again. i'll ask things on clschool channel. thank you. Mr. beach
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<beach>
tourjin: There are probably thousands of functions in various packages in the SBCL system. You can't possibly know them all.
<tourjin>
thank you.
<beach>
tourjin: But you can use DESCRIBE to find out some information about it.
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<beach>
In the version of SBCL that I have, there is not function RENAME in the SB-EXT package. Just a symbol by that name.
<beach>
*there is no function
<tourjin>
ok thank you. Mr. beach
<beach>
Pleasure.
<tourjin>
can you help me again? after trying defpackage #:my-package everythings gone. how can I go back to :sb-ext environment?
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<tourjin>
ok I found my solution. sorry to bother you.
<beach>
I am not sure what you mean. You change the package by using (in-package ...).
<tourjin>
yes. in-package :cl-user did it. thank you.
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
But again, you should not be doing serious work in the CL-USER package.
<tourjin>
i'll read about it. define my own package. thank you.
<beach>
Good luck!
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<nij->
gilberth - One thing you may care (no hurries though): Aproposing "*" in novaspec doesn't work currently.
<nij->
Neither does "+".. perhaps non-eng characters in general.
<nij->
Question: LABELS defines local bindings to functions. How about local bindings to closures? Something like (lables_ext ((let ((x 7)) (cls () x)))) ?
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<bike>
you can do (let ((x 7)) (labels ((cls () x)) ...)) just fine
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<nij->
Yeah.. but that's not "local" enough. Say in labels I have 5 local bindings, but that (x 7) is only required in the first local binding..
<nij->
(I guess that's the best we can do without extending the language with macros?)
<bike>
when would this ever be important?
<paulapatience>
Depending on what you intend to do, you could make lambdas and call serapeum:fbind
<nij->
bike I think that's just a matter of style and expressiveness. (let ..) is so useful because it allows me to know that such binding definitely only works here (lexically). In this aspect, the more localized the let form, the better and clearer.
<nij->
paulapatience Oh indeed fbind is helpful. Thanks :)
* nij-
needs to learn and get immersed into alex and sera one day..
<nij->
Question: What does "initialize" mean in 15.2? https://novaspec.org/cl/f_make-array -- I thought it just meant "populate", but that way I can't understand the sentence:
<ixelp>
make-array | Common Lisp Nova Spec
<nij->
> "If initial-element is not supplied, the consequences of later reading an uninitialized element of new-array are undefined unless either initial-contents is supplied or displaced-to is non-nil."
<nij->
What would an uninitialized element be..?
<nij->
Does the standard mean instead "an uninitialized slot/cell of new-array"?
<paulapatience>
SBCL initializes to 0, Clasp and ECL to NIL
<bike>
that's basically what it means, yes
<paulapatience>
Basically: unportable
<bike>
and initialize does mean populate
<bike>
implementations will probably initialize it to something or another, since raw uninitialized memory could be something very weird and screw up the GC
<nij->
"uninitialized element" is not a good way to formulate.. it means something different.
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<scymtym>
what is not good about it?
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<nij->
It may mean that the element itself in a slot of an array has at least two states: initialized and uninitialized.
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<scymtym>
yes. and reading an element that is in the uninitialized state results in undefined consequences, typically an implementation-dependent value is returned. you seem to think that way this is specified is not good rather than the behavior itself?
<mrcom>
nij: If the programmer wishes CL to automatically ensure all elements have a know value, said programmer uses the :INITIAL-ELEMENT keyword.
<mrcom>
If programmer decides "I'm about to load everything anyway, no point wasting CPU/memory that's just going to be thrown away", then programmer does *not* use :INITIAL-ELEMENT.
<mrcom>
(Although it's better practice to explicitly set it to something like 0 or NIL. Those are atoms and won't allocate memory, and as bike said the language is probablly going to set it *something* anyway.)
<nij->
scymtym Oh no. What I mean is I think it
<nij->
would be better if the standard writes "the consequences of later reading an uninitialized slot" instead of "uninitialized element".
<mrcom>
They aren't slots.
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<nij->
cells?
<nij->
places?
<mrcom>
The specific term is *element*.
<nij->
Hmm. Lemme look up that term.
<mrcom>
The standard is pretty darn good about specifically using terms correctly.
<nij->
15.1.1 "An array contains a set of objects called elements that can be referenced individually according to a rectilinear coordinate system."
<mrcom>
Sequences are said to have elements.
<nij->
so elements here are bojects
<nij->
What does it mean by "an object is uninitialized"?
<mrcom>
"Object" is also a specific term--it's what everything is.
<mrcom>
"Slots" are the fields in a structure or class.
<nij->
So does "an uninitialized object" mean anything?
<mrcom>
"Uninitialized" means "no telling what exact value you'll get. It depends upon the implementation."
<nij->
I can understand "uninitialized". But how about "an uninitialized object"?
<mrcom>
For example, unitialized elements in a bit array might really, truly be whatever garbage was already in memory there.
<nij->
I know what it really means. I just don't think that "uninitialized element" nor "uninitialized object" is a good way to express it, given 15.1.1.
<mrcom>
Technically, an unitialized object might be of any type. So the first element might be a fixnum 42. The second a null.
<mrcom>
Technically.
<mrcom>
I think this is a mindset thing; it hasn't really clicked with you and been internalized.
<nij->
Yeah possibly. The spec is written in English, which is not my native lang, and also even if it were people understand it differently.
<mrcom>
In CL, everthing is an object.
<mrcom>
But CL is pretty fluid about what *type* a particular object can be.
<nij->
Just curious: Which part of the standard tells what an uninitialized object is?
<mrcom>
You can have an array where the first element is a fixnum, the second a string, and the third a CONS cell.
<nij->
tells you*
<mrcom>
It *doesn't*. That's the point. The standard is specifically saying "no telling what you'll get if you look at it before you've put something specific there."
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<nij->
I see. I guess you are correct. There's not really a definition for the term "object" in the standard. The closest is https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_o.htm#object , which says that an object is just any Lisp datum. But it doesn't define what a Lisp datum, iirc.
<ixelp>
CLHS: Glossary-Section O
<mrcom>
Even when you tell CL that you want an array to only contain, say, floating point numbers (:ELEMENT-TYPE 'FLOAT), that's kind of just a hint.
<nij->
That seems to make the term "uninitialized lisp datum" open to explanation.
<mrcom>
You're kind of asking "the standard says that an object is any kind of thing. What's the definition of 'thing'?"
<mrcom>
At some point you've got to stop defining :)
<mrcom>
That's part of the mind set. It will click, and you're brain will go "ohhh! any 'thing' is *any* thing."
<nij->
Haha. I wish that day comes soon. Thanks!
<mrcom>
You're welcome.
<beach>
mrcom: Please don't repeat that in Common Lisp "everything is an object" because it just isn't so.
<beach>
nij-: By a "datum" it means anything that can be the value of a variable, that can be passed as an argument to a function call, and that can be returned as the value of a function call.
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<nij->
Does it mention a def of "datum" somewhere in the spec? I couldn't find it last time.
<scymtym>
i think the question of an "undefined object" doesn't come into play, at least in this context, since the consequences of "reading an uninitialized element of new-array" are already undefined. the operator, for example AREF, doesn't have to return anything at alla. the implementation could just crash
<beach>
nij-: You can't define everything.
<beach>
nij-: You are absolutely right. There should be a distinction between "element" as a placeholder of an object and the object contained in that placeholder.
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<beach>
It is the placeholder that may be uninitialized, meaning it does not necessarily contain a valid object.
<nij->
Thanks! I will try writing a WSCL issue on this.
<nij->
scymtym That makes sense to me too.
<nij->
But I think what it really means would have been much clearer if they defined "a placeholder" notion in the array. Alas that's not mentioned either.
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<nij->
beach Right, the term "datum" is really hard to define well.
<beach>
Well, I just defined it as "anything that can be...", but then you need to define "thing".
<nij->
scymtym Thanks! In #access, it links to #element, which says explicitly "2. [an element] (of an array) an object that is stored in the array."
<nij->
Best def I've seen is from a talk of Hickey
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<nij->
(can't find it anymore quickly - I take the last sentence back.)
<scymtym>
nij-: sure. i'm just pointing out related concepts since you said you wanted to write up an issue. CELL-ERROR talks about "location access" which seems like a good phrasing of the operation that triggres the undefined consequences in the contet of MAKE-ARRAY
<nij->
Note taken :) Thanks!
<scymtym>
(only a read access is problematic)
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<nij->
Do most implementations take X3J13 issues into account?
<beach>
Only the ones that made it into the standard.
<nij->
! Any place that documents which X3J13 issues are in the standard, and which are not?!
<beach>
Some of them didn't and shouldn't, at least I think so.
<nij->
I thought CLHS ~= dpANS3 + X3J13 ~= Standard
<beach>
You said that the other day, and I denied it.
<beach>
I also said that the Common Lisp HyperSpec is for all practical purposes the same as the standard.
<bike>
when you file a bug on github, and the bug gets fixed, you don't just incorporate the text of the issue into your program
<bike>
the issue says "hey, let's fix X by doing Y in the standard" and then Y ends up in the standard
<bike>
the issue itself doesn't go into the standard
<nij->
Ah I see.
<mrcom>
nij: Unfortunately, there are only two ways (that I can think of) to define something: either a) equate it to some other classification term, hopefully one you're familiar with :)
<mrcom>
b) Exhaustively list every instance of the term.
<mrcom>
"Datum", unfortunately, isn't a classification term that is widely used. I think that's probablly why the spec uses it; "thing" would be
<nij->
#..oO("thingy")
<mrcom>
just too widely encompassing. As beach pointed out, stuff he considered "things" aren't datums.
<mrcom>
"places" are a really good example of a Lisp "thingy" that's not a datum, and so isn't an object.
<mrcom>
Comments aren't either, but I consider that just reaching :)
<dlowe>
If I heard someone talking about CL objects I would assume CLOS objects, and by that measure not everything in CL is an object.
<dlowe>
If you cite the glossary I invite you to stuff it up your linguistic prescriptiveness
<mrcom>
dlowe: that's true, too, but only because other languages define "object" as an instance of a class. But it's a *really* common internalization.
<nij->
ANd when I searched in dpANS3, I find that macro too.
<nij->
Any substantial differences between dpAN3 and the standard?
<nij->
Apparently, I cannot conclude that "standard minus X3J13 issues= ~= dpANS3.
<mrcom>
Technically, issues in the spec aren't part of the spec.
<mrcom>
Practically, you'd be a fool to ignore them.
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<nij->
dlowe What are CLOS objects? Do you mean the instanctes of STANDARD-OBJECT?
<mrcom>
Ah, sorry, see I repeated what bike said.
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<mrcom>
There you go nij, we'll make a language lawyer out of you yet :)
<bike>
nij-: i don't know or care about differences between the standard, dpans, and CLHS. i just use the CLHS.
<nij->
I see. I will try to remember this preference..
<scymtym>
nij-: x3j13 issues typically suggest one or more changes to the standard which are written up with supporting information like a description of the background, pros and cons of the proposed changes, etc. if one of the proposals has been accepted, the proposed change is now part of the standard, not the issue itself
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<nij->
Right. scymtym Do you care about the differences among them?
<dlowe>
nij-: language is used as a medium of both communication and specification, and I was speaking in the former mode.
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<nij->
dlowe I see.
<mrcom>
nij-: dlowe isn't a language lawyer, but by choice not because he can't.
<beach>
dlowe: a Common Lisp object is any Common Lisp datum.
<scymtym>
nij-: in the sense that dpans is the basis for wscl, i care about improvements that are present in the standard or clhs but not dpans. i haven't seen many of those if any so far. in particular, i don't think any x3j13 issues have been "applied" in the standard but not in dpans
<gilberth>
nij-: Indeed. This is on purpose. You need to type at least three chars iirc. This apropos interface is not obvious though. You can type e.g. "+ fun" or "+ va". Or e.g. "mu bind". Also it lacks keyboard navigation. Thanks for noting!
<nij->
yw gilberth :) Thanks
<beach>
I would also be interested in finding an X3J13 issue that was not approved, but is listed in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
<nij->
scymtym Thanks for sharing the experience :)
<nij->
beach That sounds difficult to find..
<nij->
Stating mine too - I would be interested in getting rid of the CLHS :-)
<beach>
nij-: Yes, but it would prove my point that those issues are not related to any difference between the Common Lisp HyperSpec and the standard.
<mrcom>
nij-: beach *is* a language lawyer, by choice and profession. Which is an important thing for the ecosystem. Without procesion we would have Perl. Or YAML.
<mrcom>
Or (shudder) Rails.
<mrcom>
s/procesion/precision/
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<beach>
I think it is important for the purpose of communication to use some consistent terminology, especially if that terminology is defined by the standard.
<mrcom>
It is. And since human communication naturally "drifts" concepts and terms, it's important for someone to yank terminology back.
<mrcom>
That's not going to keep people from naturally saying "object" when referring to instances of stuff that meats the CLOS protocols. Nor should it.
<mrcom>
s/meets/ I'm really struggling with homonyms today. Hm.
<beach>
The problem with "CLOS object" is that it can mean either a standard object (i.e., an instance of the class STANDARD-OBJECT) or an instance of a standard class (i.e., an instance of an instance of the class STANDARD-CLASS) and they are not the same.
<beach>
The problem with "CLOS class" is that classes were introduced to Common Lisp as a result of incorporating CLOS, so every class can reasonably be thought of as a "CLOS class".
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<mrcom>
beach: OK, I've thought about it, and you were right to correct me about "thing" and "object". It's OK, and good to couch unfamiliar concepts by way of other familiar but fuzzy concepts,
<mrcom>
and OK an good to couch things pedantically,
<mrcom>
but doing one while swearing you're doing the other is not good.
<emaczen>
I'm getting a compilation error when I asdf:load-system
<emaczen>
however if I just compile-file and then load the fasl everything is fine
<mrcom>
What are you loading, what's the compile error?
<emaczen>
It says caught warning
<beach>
mrcom: Great!
<emaczen>
derived type of SEQUENCE is (VALUES VECTOR &OPTIONAL)
<emaczen>
conflicting with its asserted type LIST
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<bike>
that means your code has a problem (specifically, that problem). it will load but if you ever actually run the code the problem is in you'll get an error.
<bike>
asdf treats warnings as failures by default, but you can still load the fasl if you don't mind that your code is wrong.
<bike>
you should get the warning when you compile-file as well.
<emaczen>
derived type is what the compiler finds the type to be right?
<emaczen>
what exactly is asserted type?
<mrcom>
He might be getting a different optimization level with asdf vs. plain REPL.
<mrcom>
(So no warning when direct compiling)
<emaczen>
mrcom: I reloaded .sbclrc etcc -- I see the warning now from #'compile-file
<bike>
emaczen: that is what a derived type is, yes. asserted type means something declared. this might not be a declaration you wrote. for example you'd get a warning like that if you wrote (nth n sequence) where sequence is derived to be a vector, since NTH asserts that its argument is a list.
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<emaczen>
ideas as to why the &optional?
<bike>
that's just how sbcl indicates the type "exactly one vector"
<bike>
as opposed to "a vector and then arbitrary other values"
<bike>
in a multiple values sense
<bike>
it's probably not relevant to the problem
<emaczen>
The highlighted error is on #'sort
<bike>
we might be able to help more if you pastebin the code somewhere.
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<emaczen>
bike: I will in a bit if I can't figure it out...
<bike>
sort itself can take a vector fine, so the problem is something else about the call, probably
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<emaczen>
I think my error is relatively trivial
<emaczen>
I'm not sure why I am just finding it now
<emaczen>
if I change mapcar to map 'list with sort being a subform it works. SBCL is making me change my code on multiple places
<emaczen>
This must be because sort returns a sequence generally?
<bike>
sort returns the same kind of sequence you put in
<bike>
if you give it a vector, it returns a vector. so (mapcar foo (sort vector ...)) will not work, as you are calling mapcar on a vector.
<bike>
mapcar only accepts lists. map accepts any kind of sequence, so using it instead of mapcar should be fine
<emaczen>
(loop .... collect ) is always a list right?
<bike>
collect makes a list, yes
<emaczen>
Yeah, so why would SBCL give an error then? Is it just mad because sort could return a non list sequence?
<bike>
no, it's mad because it is going to return a non list sequence
<bike>
it has determined that you're passing SORT a vector
<bike>
or at least that's my guess, since i don't know what your code looks like.
<emaczen>
I'll make a paste because I want to know.
<beach>
Please use plaster.tymoon.eu.
<emaczen>
ok
<aeth>
The compiler is (almost) always right... it's returning a vector. Maybe it couldn't detect this at compile time (instead of at runtime) until a relatively recent version.
<bike>
the compiler is probably right, but sbcl sometimes indicates its rightness inscrutably
<beach>
emaczen: I think it is hard to tell anything from that code. Plus, the indentation is off. Your code may contain TABs.
<beach>
emaczen: And it seems you are using an IF with no `else' branch.
<emaczen>
indentation is off because I already changed it to map 'list in my code
<bike>
it doesn't seem immediately problematic. SBCL says the warning is specifically on the SORT line? not the mapcar, for instance?
<emaczen>
beach: if there are no children then it is nil -- what's wrong with that?
<beach>
emaczen: It is bad style.
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<bike>
the if is also redundant, since hash-values checks if the hash table is nil. but that's probably unrelated to the warning
<beach>
emaczen: IF should always have both branches, because if it is used for value, then it is good style to include both branches, and if it is not used for value, it should be replaced by WHEN or UNLESS.
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<beach>
I mean, if it has only one branch, and it is not used for value, then...
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<emaczen>
I probably have the if there when I got an error and tried a few things and never took it out.
<beach>
emaczen: And (WHEN HT is a direct violation of the rules stated on page 13 of the LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman.
<beach>
emaczen: The indentation is probably off for other reasons as well, because COLLECT is not aligned under FOR.
<emaczen>
bike: slime or sbcl underlines the if.
<emaczen>
if I remove the if form then sort is underlined
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<bike>
well, i can compile this code with no warnings, if i use identity functions and have the mapcar be the entire body of a function
<bike>
so there's more relevant context
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<emaczen>
conflicting with its asserted type LIST -- possible declarations on children? children is the accessor to a slot named children
<bike>
there's also the fact the warning refers to a variable named SEQUENCE, which is not apparent in your code
<bike>
so either it's elsewhere or part of an internal sbcl expansion
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<emaczen>
Thanks for looking -- I think it is worth forgetting about and to just use map 'list
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<flip214>
Is there a codewalker library that allows to wrap each value form (so in PROGN, variable bindings in LET, etc.; recursively) in some code?
<flip214>
Ie. Is there a library that I pass some form and a function and the function is called with each value form therein?
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<nij->
Will WSCL issues ever get "integrated" into dpANS3? Or it's planned to have them remain as independent patches?
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<beach>
nij-: They are already integrated in (at least one version of) the document created by scymtym that is at the same "level" as the Common Lisp HyperSpec and the Nova Spec.
<ixelp>
wscl-issues: New issue STANDARDIZED-RESTART-NAMES · s-expressionists/wscl@04da4ec · GitHub
<beach>
That's how we format the WSCL issues so that they will have the same format as the X3J13 issues, but that's not the document I was talking about.
<beach>
I can't remember the link right now.
<nij->
That's fine. I will try to memorize this plan. Thanks.
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