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<beach>
Yes, and specifying mainly those things that the main Common Lisp implementations agree upon anyway.
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<aeth>
I think global state would be more of the domain of ASDF or whatever the build system used is
<aeth>
especially if parallelized
<nij->
beach Does WSCL try to specify all unspecified details? Or does it have a taste on which one to specify and which one not to? If it's the latter case, what's the taste?
<beach>
The main preference is for behavior that the main Common Lisp implementations agree upon.
<nij->
Ah. I see!
<beach>
There could be minor disagreements, like we can propose a TYPE-ERROR to be signaled, and some implementations may currently signal a SIMPLE-ERROR.
<beach>
Changing that would be very easy for the maintainers.
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<jhiltu>
I've tried using cl a bit but I've never really understood macros, when to use them or how to write them. Now I'm attempting to play around with cl-sdl2 a bit and I wonder if I could somehow write a macro for defining keybindings like this? https://github.com/jhiltu/cl-sdl2-test-project/blob/main/keys.lisp
<ixelp>
cl-sdl2-test-project/keys.lisp at main · jhiltu/cl-sdl2-test-project · GitHub
<ixelp>
cl-sdl2-test-project/test-project.lisp at main · jhiltu/cl-sdl2-test-project · GitHub
<beach>
jhiltu: Macros are used to create new syntax, not at the character level (for which there are reader macros) but at the s-expression level.
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<beach>
jhiltu: Creating new syntax like that might decrease the amount of boilerplate code that would otherwise be required.
<beach>
jhiltu: But macros should not be used when functions can do the work instead.
<jhiltu>
I see
<jhiltu>
so I could achieve what I want without macros?
<beach>
I don't know.
<jhiltu>
ah, okay :D thanks for the explanation anyways
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<jhiltu>
I guess I need to start with an easier example and some good resource
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<aeth>
jhiltu: Imo... The most common, simple macros that you may want to use or define probably fit the define-foo, with-foo, or do-foo patterns. In other words, define a global with certain boilerplate removed (probably a wrapper over defclass or defun... rarely perhaps something like deftype or defparameter), or define a local (quite frequently with unwind-protect), or define a custom iteration.
<beach>
jhiltu: Did you try to macroexpand the macro call?
<beach>
Oh, I guess you did.
<beach>
jhiltu: The arguments to a macro are not evaluated. They are forms. So when you type (DEF-KEYS-CLASS FOO MY-KEYS), then MY-KEYS is going to be passed as a symbol to the macro expander.
<jhiltu>
oh
<beach>
jhiltu: But then in the macro expander, you try to loop over it and it is not a list.
<jhiltu>
I see, is there a way to force the evaluation?
<jhiltu>
or am I thinking about this all wrong
<beach>
The latter I suspect.
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<beach>
Wanting to force evaluation is a sign of that. But why do you want to pass the keylist as an argument? Are you going to define more than one class with the same list of keys?
<beach>
Oh, wait, I take that back.
<beach>
Hold on, let me analyze the situation...
<jhiltu>
I don't really know what I'm doing :D
<beach>
I have no easy solution, but that's probably because I am preoccupied with other stuff. Maybe someone else can figure something out.
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<beach>
My question was valid...
<beach>
Are you planning to define more than one class with the same keylist?
<beach>
If not, there is no point in sticking the keylist in a variable.
<beach>
Especially a variable without earmuffs. :)
<beach>
Oh, but you want to use the variable for something other than defining the class.
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<jhiltu>
yeah, this might be pretty pointless in the end
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<jhiltu>
I thought doing it would maybe teach me about lisp
<beach>
Yes, indeed. If someone comes up with a reasonable solution, I think that will be the case. But I am not very concentrated right now.
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<beach>
But, yes, you can force evaluation using EVAL, or in this case, you may be able to use just SYMBOL-VALUE.
<beach>
And, again, you should use *earmuffs* on special variables.
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<jack_rabbit>
Hello! I have a small macro here to enable continuous retrying of a form via restart. I'm curious if there's a better way to do this: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/4249#4249
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<younder>
If there is only one parameter why use key. You could use &boy instead of &rest. Something like (defmacro with-retry (report &optional (restart-name 'retry) &body body)...
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<jack_rabbit>
younder, Thanks, good idea. But other than the argument style, the implementation looks reasonable?
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<younder>
Why is here a loop AND a do?
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<jack_rabbit>
ahh, you're right the do is redundant.
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<nij->
jhiltu Yeah. alphapapa told me that the point of macros is to abstract syntactically. One lesson I learned from this is to first write codes in functions, and if you spot repeating codes, abstract them in macros.
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<NotThatRPG>
nij-: It's a subtle issue to decide whether to abstract using a macro or a function...
<nij->
If a function can do, why use macros?
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<younder>
A macro is substituted in directly so it is faster. Of course you could make the function inline..
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<younder>
Not that you should optimize prematurely.
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<bike>
macros are nice when you actually want new syntax. for example, dolist and mapc do the same thing, and either could be implemented in terms of the other, but it's sometimes nice to just have a body right there
<nij->
younder Could macro make programs run faster?
<younder>
Optimizing compilers like Java's use aggressive function expansion and then register intimation. It is provably best to lave it to the compiler. But yes
<bike>
function call overhead is probably not why your code is slow.
<bike>
if you want to inline, use inline, do not use macros.
<NotThatRPG_>
younder: Right, but remember that macros can't be invoked with funcall or apply
<NotThatRPG_>
And there are compiler-macros for speed issues
<bike>
using macros instead of functions is "for speed" an 80s C move that we don't need to promulgate
<NotThatRPG_>
with- constructs are good uses for macros
<bike>
is an*
<beach>
Well said.
<younder>
If done 'manually' it reads to unreadable code. If done mechanically you get java bloat but better speed.
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<bike>
you get bloat in the object code either way, so there is no reason to use macros
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<younder>
It is the compiler that should use inlining preferably automatically. The writer should focus on clear code. Macros obfuscate code. Fine for DRY and for creating higher level structures over tagbody if and the like.
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<younder>
Also works for nested templates in Spinnerette.
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<younder>
Still nij macros can make programs run faster. Just.. don't
<NotThatRPG_>
Macros like the with- constructs (e.g., with-open-file) reduce bloat and clarify the meaning of code, because you don't have to go hunting around to figure out when resources are cleaned up.
<NotThatRPG_>
They are also a good reason for macros because you are syntactically abstracting when you splice your resource variable name into the construct.
<phadthai>
I agree, macros can make code cleaner or messier, but for compiling optimization is where they risk making the code less readable indeed
<phadthai>
afterall they're how lisp allows to easily create domain specific languages
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<nij->
beach Which part is well-said?
<NotThatRPG_>
Keeping in focus the distinction b/w syntactic and semantic abstraction is key.
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<nij->
NotThatRPG_ That's what I learned mainly from hlissner :-D
<beach>
What bike said: "using macros instead of functions is "for speed" an 80s C move that we don't need to promulgate" + modification
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<nij->
s/alphapapa/hlissner/
<nij->
Oh..? Using macros was for speed mostly only for C (or did I misunderstood)? How come?
<nij->
(Will be back and read log needa go to work..)
<beach>
nij-: Early C compilers weren't very good.
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<beach>
nij-: And C on the VAX used a very slow function call instruction.
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<bike>
it is very common to see C code that does things like "#define MIN(x, y) (x < y) ? x : y" instead of using the standard min function either because it is very old, or because it is new but the person who wrote it is unaware that compilers have improved since 1972.
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<nij->
Ah, I see.
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<beach>
bike: Exactly. And in the case of some of my former students, it was a general lack of knowledge about how compilers work and what they are capable of. So they would just repeat what they had seen.
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<beach>
Yep.
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<nij->
Is Vsevolod Dyomkin still lisping?
<nij->
Dyomkin released a book on lisp and data structure.. and faded away. Their rutils is great, but seems unmaintained for a few years.
<nij->
Oh.. they're from Kyiv .. https://vseloved.github.io/ Perhaps that explains. Hope they are doing well......
<ixelp>
Vsevolod Dyomkin (Domkin)
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