<nij->
standard: "The set of special operator names is fixed in Common Lisp; no way is provided for the user to define a special operator. " The set of special operator names is fixed in Common Lisp; no way is provided for the user to define a special operator.
<nij->
So the standard bans the implementation from giving the user option to define new special ops.. I wonder if the implementation can provide more special ops though.
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<bike>
implementations can and do provide other special operators
<nij->
I see..
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<bike>
i don't know how useful a special operator like that would be though, compared to just having an eval function with an environment parameter
<bike>
kernel has a similar special operator called $remote-eval or something, and part of the idea was to use it to e.g. evaluate code in a standard environment a la with-standard-io-syntax, but i don't know how practically useful that is
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<nij->
Sorry for my bad grammar. English isn't my native. But this reads to me like it saying the symbol is accessible in *every* package.
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<gilberth>
Neither is it mine. But no, I don't think that "any" would imply every.
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<gilberth>
Consider a questions: "Is FOO accessible in any package?" "Yes, it is accessible from CL-USER, but not from FANCY-PACKAGE."
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<nij->
Grammar sites and LLM suggest any means one or more. Ok.. so that's fine. Sorry!
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<gilberth>
I was more referring to to my ears a sentence like "I have any apples, I should make an apple pie." sounds wrong while "I have some apples." sounds right.
<gilberth>
I believe negation implies "any". "I don't have any apples, so I cannot make an apple pie." sounds ok. While "I don't have some apples." sounds odd. Maybe someone better at English than me could clarify.
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<nij->
I remember seeing "any" used in an affirmative English sentence. But it doesn't show up quite often nowadays, at least in verbal english.
<paulapatience>
gilberth's ear is good.
<paulapatience>
One example where any strongly suggests all would be: My code works with any compiler.
<paulapatience>
But it is indeed a source of ambiguity.
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<nij->
Can a symbol be interned in two packages simultaneously?
<nij->
Oh yes - "the same symbol can be interned in more than one package." Sorry this is a stupid question.
<nij->
This is a nuance that I think I will easily forget again..
<gilberth>
This use list as with :USE in defpackage is more like a search path.
<nij->
Yep..
<nij->
Why does the standard differ these two?
<nij->
How is such seperation useful?
<gilberth>
Because that are different things. Begins with that to refer to symbols in used packages (without a package qualifier) would only work if that symbol is exported. And the used package can also change.
<gilberth>
And of course when you use a package you use all symbol exported symbols from that package.
<gilberth>
You might however want to only import one specific symbol from another package. Or a few.
<gilberth>
So both have it uses.
<nij->
I see.
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<younder>
beach: All implementation's I have looked at use a copy-on-write approach to multi-threading. Has this been addressed in the updated spec?
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<younder>
I mean for a global environment.
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<beach>
That would be very strange.
<beach>
So if you do (defun foo ...) in one thread, the function foo will not be defined in a different thread?
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<younder>
heh?
<beach>
And, the only "updated spec" I know of is WSCL, and I think multiple threads would be way too hard for WSCL, at least initially.
<beach>
younder: DEFUN does a (setf (fdefinition ...)) which writes to the global environment, so if it is then first copied, the function won't be seen in other threads.
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<beach>
Besides, no current Common Lisp implementation has an object representing the global environment, so to write-protect it that way would mean write-protecting almost the entire system.
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<younder>
We must be talking past each other. How do you deal with a dynamic variable (usually global) in a thread. You just read the global one. It is fine if all threads do is read them. But what happens on write? You make a thread local copy and write to that. This can all be made to work as long as you check if there is a thread local copy first and on fail fallback on reading the global (top process) one.
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<beach>
I believe that in all current Common Lisp implementations with threads, the global bindings is shared between all the threads.
<beach>
And if you are not talking about the global value, and instead you are referring to a thread-local binding of it, then you are not using the global environment.
<younder>
I mean that is what dynamic binding does anyhow even in a single thread.
<beach>
If the variable is locally bound, then writing to it does not affect the global environment.
<beach>
How the dynamic environment is represented is outside the scope of any specification anyway, let alone WSCL.
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<nij->
https://novaspec.org/cl/t_boolean This seems to be a place to specify more? In " The type boolean contains the symbols t and nil, which represent true and false, respectively.", the term "contains" should better be "consists of", in order to exclude every other thing not in the set {nil, t}?
<beach>
Indeed. Please give us a short GitHub issue for WSCL, and someone will write it up in a more complete form later.
<nij->
Will do.
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<paulapatience>
I would argue that that's not that ambiguous
<paulapatience>
However, "consists of only" would probably be better than both
<paulapatience>
"contains only", rather
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<beach>
I agree.
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<kanuba>
I would argue for "consists of", rather than "contains only" or "consists of only", given the Latin origin of the words. Using contain, consist (or include), as English roots are all correct, but there is less ambiguity in my opinion.
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<paulapatience>
Includes (without "only") would be the most ambiguous in my opinion
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<kanuba>
Aye
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<pranavats>
Inclusion (subset) is a different relation than membership though. "Contains" is almost an idiom for set membership.
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<maxwell_>
anyone here familiar with SBCL inet sockets?
<maxwell_>
trying to listen for connections on a port on my machine, and then just print out bytes received
<maxwell_>
so far I have a created inet-socket that I try to bind to 127.0.0.1 port 8000, but I get failures saying that the connection was refused, and if I keep messing around I eventually get that the port is in use
<maxwell_>
the machine is a remote VM with Alpine Linux installed
<maxwell_>
specifically I'm getting a SB-BSD-SOCKETS:NOT-CONNECTED-ERROR on the socket-receive call
<maxwell_>
am I supposed to be using a stream somehow? Or maybe it's just a stupid simple mistake I've made? This is one of my first forays into CL
<gilberth>
You're not by any chance trying to read from the listening socket?
<maxwell_>
Well I'm trying to do a socket-receive on the listening socket
<gilberth>
Yes, and that one is not connected. Read from the other socket that is the actual connection. There needs to be some what is accept(2) with UNIX there. And that would give you the actual connection.
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<maxwell_>
So I would need to wait on the bound socket until I try to make a connection (from my browser say) and then do an accept followed by the receive?
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<gilberth>
That accept(2) whatever that is in SBCL would wait until someone connects, yes. And you get a second new socket representing the connection.
<maxwell_>
Ohhhhh thanks. I'll mess around with that a little to see if I can get it working
<gilberth>
You're confused by the imho confusing BSD socket API. Maybe you find some examples that you can copy.
<maxwell_>
Any recommendations? I know of usocket.
<gilberth>
usocket is fine and has a simple API but for some reason that is beyond me doesn't allow for :external-format last time I looked.
<yitzi>
They justify it by saying that external-format isn't standardized across implementations.
<yitzi>
I suspect that most people layer a flexi-stream or hand-rolled Gray stream on top.
<gilberth>
The exact values of what :external-format is isn't standardized. Still a poor excuse imho rendering usocket unsuitable for use with character streams.
<yitzi>
I don't disagree.
<gilberth>
There are only two character encodings that matter these days: ISO-8859-1 and UTF-8 and there is LF and CRLF line termination. How hard could it be to figure out what those four combinations are with any given Lisp. So I at least would have offered those when portability would have been a concern.
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<gilberth>
Otherwise I like the idea of usocket as it gives you a simple API to work with. This BSD dance of making a sockets, binding, listening, accepting is tedious an confusing.
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<younder>
Dunno, I'm used to the C API I guess
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<younder>
That old book Linux Network Programming by Stevens, Fenner and Rudoff. I just translate the recipes there
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<gilberth>
The by far most common two things you want to do is (1) using TCP/IP to connect to some host at some port and having a stream which otherwise is like any other Common Lisp stream. and (2) Make a listening socket at some port possibly listening to ether all ip addresses or only some like 127.1 and accept connections giving you a stream for that connection. usocket makes those two tasks easy.
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