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<paulapatience>
I actually always write (require "asdf") and it works
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<dbotton>
I recently came across an issue where I used a macro earlier in a function in the same file before it was defined later in that same file and that created issues at run-time, other than placing the macro earlier in the file to insure the defmacro is read first is there anything else that can be done to catch such a "user error"?
<paulapatience>
You can also define the macro in a different compilation unit, like a different file
<paulapatience>
And ensure that it is loaded before
<paulapatience>
in the .asd
<dbotton>
that is just an alternative solution, I was curious if way to catch such a mistake
<paulapatience>
Does SBCL not issue a warning?
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<dbotton>
not that I noticed
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<paulapatience>
What kind of run-time issues did it create, actually? If you are compiling the file, it shouldn't matter if the macro is defined later
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<dbotton>
it seems to have interpreted one of the parameters as a function
<dbotton>
at runtime
<paulapatience>
Ah, I suppose it thought what you called was a function, but in fact it was a macro
<dbotton>
(with-clog-debugger (clog-body)
<dbotton>
clog-body was thought to be a function instead a parameter
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<Bubblegumdrop>
dbotton eval-when ?
<beach>
dbotton: There should have been a warning about an unknown function. Sometimes, if your macro uses some nontrivial syntax, you will get an error then, because the syntax of the form is not a valid function call.
<beach>
Oh, wait, maybe there is no warning if it is defined as a macro later.
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<beach>
I seem to recall messages such as "Defining FOO as a macro when it was previously assumed to be a function", but I don't remember the context.
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<agm>
beach: yes, just evaluate "(defun foo () (bar)) (defmacro bar ())". the compiler assumes that any unknown compound form is a function call, see the first point in clhs 3.2.2.3
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<beach>
Yes, I think I knew that. But the question was whether there is some indication that the compiler made this assumption which then turned out to be not so great.
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<younder>
Well (ql:quickload :bike) won't load. I get a error in rwlock. line 32: bt2 does not exist.
<younder>
bt2 I am guessing is Bordeaux-threads, but why the 2?
<beach>
younder: I think fe[nl]ix announced version 2 some time ago. Check the logs.
<ixelp>
Bordeaux Threads APIv2 | the fe[nl]ix blog
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<younder>
Thanks that worked. Needed to clone bordeaux-threads into local projects and load it. I guess the version in the ql repo is stale.
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<beach>
gilberth: I am comparing the dictionary entries for NTH in the Common Lisp HyperSpec and in the Nova Spec. In the Common Lisp HyperSpec, there are sections "Side Effects", "Affected by", "Exceptional Situations", and "Notes" (each containing just "None"), but those are absent in the Nova Spec. Is this deliberate?
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<gilberth>
beach: Ask LispWorks. The TeX has no "None" in there either.
<beach>
So it doesn't have those section names either?
<gilberth>
Saying it has no side effects is bold for NTH being an accessor.
<beach>
Heh, indeed!
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<beach>
gilberth: How are your Common Lisp projects going?
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<gilberth>
beach: As always those lack documentation. CLEX I consider finished for quite some time. These days I focus on noffi. The parser is pretty robust, struct/union layout is verified against about 10,000 existing header files. So the tedious part is about being done. I still cons and dispatch too much at runtime, so I'll attack that next. However, in overall I'm pretty confident with the API which is the hard part.
<beach>
Yeah, sounds good. Don't hesitate to submit draft documentation for proofreading and suggestions of improvement.
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<gilberth>
Ironically, I still believe for Free-CLIM I'll be better off with a display server. Existing GUI toolkits are written towards single-threading and towards running exactly one application. Also ironic: MS Windows is doing it right though.
<beach>
I see.
<beach>
What prevents the use of a display server?
<gilberth>
I need to come up with one. And write one.
<beach>
Hmm, yes, I see. You don't want to use X11?
<gilberth>
X11? You're joking?
<beach>
It is pretty buggy, I know, but it could be a temporary solution.
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<gilberth>
It can't do anti-aliased text, it can't draw an anti-aliased line. It is extremely device dependent. No, thanks.
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<beach>
I see. I was under the impression it could do anti-aliasing.
<gilberth>
Kids ruined it. X11 is halfway towards being just a glorified blitterer like Wayland. I don't want to send bitmaps across the wire and I want that the protocol is device-independent.
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<beach>
I understand.
<gilberth>
beach: The RENDER extension can draw triangles and can blitter. That's it.
<beach>
OK.
<gilberth>
This is why I go FFI. The de facto API is not the wire protocol anymore but libraries like Cairo.
<beach>
Yes, I have noticed that. Very sad.
<gilberth>
Besides I also want good Cocoa (macos) and MS Windows backend.
<gilberth>
beach: It doesn't matter much. What matters is that I don't consider X11 good for remote display anymore.
<beach>
I understand.
<gilberth>
And remote display is what I want to have.
<gilberth>
It's a pity these days you have the bandwidth and reasonable latency at home and could run old core X11 just fine. So you're stuck in the 90s.
<beach>
There are lots of problems with the way current computing environments are going.
<gilberth>
X11 is broken, mainly because Keith Packard never asked himself why it is possible that he mails PDFs to somebody without asking for the resolution and fonts of that printer that this someone happens to have has.
<gilberth>
And also ironically HTML/JS is the new NeWS.
<beach>
Wasn't NeWS based on "display postscript" or am I confusing it with something else?
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<gilberth>
Yes, it was. And hence device independent. I read that you could also deposit PS code on the display server.
<beach>
Nice!
<gilberth>
It's a pity. Cairo as a graphics API is fine. It implements the PSish graphics model which is so common. Why isn't Cairo an X11 extension? And why haven't fonts be fixed?
<beach>
Rhetorical questions, I presume.
<gilberth>
And surprisingly Cairo can support the whole general designs of CLIM. Which PS cannot and neither can GDI e.g. PDF sort of can with a few tricks.
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<gilberth>
beach: You know Keith motivation to rather send bitmaps?
<beach>
Nope.
<gilberth>
His reasoning was: An X11 application needs to query font metric. And with many fonts and Unicode this adds considerable to start-up time of an application. So he figured that rather sending (and caching) bitmaps of the glyphs used to the server is less traffic and less latency.
<gilberth>
It hasn't occurred to him that metrics can be shared information. It is with the PostScript e.g. all the metrics are well-known.
<beach>
I see.
<younder>
Could you use HTML 5 I mean just wrap a window around webkit? It has harfbuz (truetype) and you get device independence for 'free'
<gilberth>
So would go like this. The application would say "Hey server, I am gonna to use 'Times New Roman.ttf' checksum 471130 and call it font #1. Please use font #1 at size 16px and render glyphs 'a' 'b' 'c' at (x,y)."
<gilberth>
Then the server would just do that. However, when the server doesn't have that version of that font, it would say "Sorry, can you please provide me a copy of that 'Times New Roman.ttf' with checksum 471130, thanks!"
<gilberth>
The server would remember that. Chances are very high that it has this font already. It's probably not the first time you want that font and you're also probably not the only person using that font.
<gilberth>
Then the protocol can be device-independent again. The server can scale the font as he wishes. And he could play tricks with subpixels, the application doesn't need to care.
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<gilberth>
younder: I have a HTML Canvas backend for Free-CLIM and it works nicely. Though I wrote it for the sole purpose to see how a vector-oriented display server protocol would fare. And whether vsync over the wire would work out. This HTML Canvas and JS was a quick way to conduct this experiment.
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<younder>
I've noticed ACL moved their entire window interface to the web browser.
<younder>
And I've seen VS code.
<gilberth>
Another defect of X11: No proper support for double buffering. First the implementation of the double buffer extension is horrible. Second you have no means to get at vsync. And third repaint is asynchronous while you would want to say "please repaint, here's your drawable/gc" and the client would repaint and finally say "Done!".
<gilberth>
younder: We'll see. HTML/JS is the new NeWS after all.
<gilberth>
But say goodbye to the meta modifier. Maybe they'll fix that. But I doubt that.
<gilberth>
And this repaint must be coupled with resizing a top level window. I can't stand any flicker anymore. Every frame should be perfect.
<gilberth>
Also: When you're fully device independent you can easily move display of some application about.
<younder>
How about WebASM and a CL WebASM compiler? Now it could be written in CL.
<gilberth>
younder: That's something else. I was talking about a display server protocol.
<younder>
yeah, forget it
<gilberth>
I am not up-to-date with GC for WASM and thus don't know whether we could use that.
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<gilberth>
Otherwise: Only Webworkers can block. And you cannot interrupt a Webworker. And a WASM program cannot peek at the stack. This leaves you with having your own stack for Lisp data and with polling would you like to multiple threads. GC must be able to interrupt threads. Not using a WebWorker? Forget about it.
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<gilberth>
younder: The other approach is to embrace CSS and come up with a not-quite-CLIM based on manipulating the DOM instead of display lists (output records). You'd get typesetting for free.
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<beach>
gilberth: Can an alternative display server of your design run at the same time as some other display server like X11? I am not very knowledgeable about graphics.
<beach>
... or would your display server be an X11 client in that situation?
<gilberth>
beach: It would not replace your native window system. So with X11 it would be just an X11 application.
<beach>
That's what I thought, yes. Thanks.
<beach>
Sounds doable.
<gilberth>
It sure is. Simple graphics are easy. However, I still want display lists on the server. That's the tricky part.
<beach>
Yes, I see.
<gilberth>
So that when you scroll a subwindow that can happen w/o network traffic. And using whatever scrollbars are native to your platform.
<beach>
I understand.
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<beach>
Sounds like a great project!
<gilberth>
Text input is another issue. An <alt> key, <compose> key, some input method, or keyboard layout in general should happen at the display server as well. So it's not just a stream of keycodes. That's too low-level and not device-independent.
<beach>
Sure.
<gilberth>
That'll get tricky. E.g. when I press <alt-u>, I get ¨ and the cursor is below, and then can type e.g. <a> to make an "ä".
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<gilberth>
So it should be possible to write a text editor which still behaves like native text input gadgets. Emacs can do that on the mac. So they must have come up with some abstraction. It gets more wild with Asian scripts.
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<younder>
Emacs started using harfbuz for font layout back in version 27. That is the same as blink uses. so..
<younder>
and safari
<gilberth>
Yes, another think that I don't want to write myself. atm I still use Pango for X11 and a likewise Cocoa API for macos.
<gilberth>
Anyhow, meanwhile I'll focus on noffi. I should grow the habit of actually finishing anything.
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<beach>
Good resolution.
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<nij->
How should I deal with UB in common lisp?
<nij->
Never use them? Is that possible?
<paulapatience>
What do you mean by UB
<nij->
undefined behavior
<paulapatience>
What do you mean by undefined behavior
<nij->
parts in the spec that say "up to the implementation"
<paulapatience>
There are some portability libraries that deal with some of that
<beach>
nij-: You should always use constructs that are defined in the standard.
<nij->
And if it says "up to the impl", try avoid using it?
<beach>
Then try to write your code so that it doesn't matter what the implementation does.
<nij->
got it :)
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<ecraven>
what's the goto-library for reading json?
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<ixelp>
GitHub - phmarek/yason: Common Lisp JSON serializer written with simplicity in mind
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<ecraven>
hm.. so I have a 20MB json file, cl-json takes 0.5s, yason takes 1.2s. I only need the first few kb of it. is there a "streaming" mode so that I get events, and can stop the parsing when I have all the information I need?
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<childlikempress>
paulapatience: not sure! but it should definitely include the string 1010
<childlikempress>
reb: that's annoying as it requires you to choose a value of 32 (64 maybe more reasonable, but not necessarily sufficient, and at the same time 32 may be excessive)
<bike>
you can change 32 to whatever you want
<bike>
there's no obvious right bit width here
<childlikempress>
the point is to pick some default policy for the repl printout
<childlikempress>
perhaps '...1010'
<bike>
would -1 print as '...'
<childlikempress>
...1
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<reb>
childlikempress: Why do you want to see "1010" somewhere in the output?
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<childlikempress>
because that is a significant bitstring in the binary representation of -6
<childlikempress>
so if i want to reason about the number as a bitstring, then that is critical information
<reb>
I find it odd that you're interested in the bits of a negative number. When I'm doing bit manipulation, I generally use positive numbers.
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<childlikempress>
there are lots of well-known applications of negative numbers. for instance (logand x (- x)) to isolate the lowest set bit of x
<childlikempress>
for that matter. lognot will _always_ either take or produce a negative number--so its existence is predicated on the assumption that bit manipulation on negative numbers is useful
<reb>
I guess I'd call that an application of negation to bit manipulation ...
<childlikempress>
ok, so I'm trying to do bit manipulation, and I need negative numbers to do it
<childlikempress>
what's the problem?
<reb>
I have no problem at all with that.
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<childlikempress>
how will I reason about the negative numbers that are intermediate values in my bit manipulations if I cannot see that -6 has the significant bits 1010?
<reb>
I've done it myself. What I've never been concerned with is printing a negative value to see what bits are set.
<childlikempress>
ok. but I want to do that
<reb>
Generally also when I'm doing bit manipulation, I'm not using bignums, so an LDB expression like the one above works great for debugging.
<childlikempress>
and I want to know if there's an easy way to make sly do it automatically when printing negative numbers at the repl
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<reb>
Perhaps you can cook up a custom presentation?? ... I've not experimented with them.
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<reb>
It does look like slime-presentations causes every REPL result to be "presented".
<reb>
... the question is whether you can make Emacs present negative integers in a custom way.
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<pfdietz>
The binary representations of integers in Common Lisp can be thought of as having an infinite number of bits. All but a finite number of the bits are 0 for non-negative integers, and 1 for negative integers.
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<Odin->
childlikempress: You talk as if you expect there to be a single, well-defined bit representation of negative numbers.
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<childlikempress>
Odin-: i do. and, in common lisp, my expectation is satisfied. as pfdietz says
<Odin->
Numbers in one's complement and two's complement are no more negative numbers than they are pixel brightnesses.
<pfdietz>
There is the representation implied by the various logical integer functions, but a Common Lisp implementation is not required to use any particular internal representation, as that representation is not itself visible in any standard way.
<childlikempress>
Odin-: common lisp specifies two's-complement representation for integers
<pfdietz>
This means, for example, that it doesn't matter what kind of computer the Common Lisp is implemented on. Word size, twos vs. ones complement, none affect what the integer logical functions do.
<childlikempress>
implementation details are completely irrelevant here
<Odin->
childlikempress: Well, yes and no. CL specifies that the logical binary operators treat negative numbers _as if_ they were in two's complement. It's a fine distinction, but one that matters quite a bit because two's complement isn't defined without a limited bit width.
<childlikempress>
it seems like you are equivocating over the meaning of 'two's-complement'. i don't really care what we take 'two's-complement' to mean, but i don't think there is any ambiguity over the semantics of negative numbers in common lisp
<childlikempress>
i remember--this is why i left this channel before
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<paulapatience>
There's probably some way to hack sly to do what you want, but not right out of the box