<bike>
"If there are no forms in that clause [which evaluates to true], the primary value of the test-form is returned by the cond form."
<mrcom>
Oh yeah... I see it now in the spe .
<mrcom>
That's useful. I've been using acond for that.
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<beach>
The use of anaphoric macros, and indeed of this special COND case, encourages violations of the rules stated on page 13 of the LUV slides by Norvig and Pitman.
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<younder>
I think it is fair to say Paul Graham had his own ideas about how to use lisp. I would argue that overuse of macros can lead to unmaintainable code. It is hard to read code if the rules change all the time.
<younder>
anaphoric macro's are in my mind OK though.
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<beach>
But the LUV slides are not about your mind. These are highly experienced developers who worked on professional projects in teams with many developers, and what they say is that if the rules on page 13 are violated, then some members of some of those teams will be slowed down when trying to read other people's code.
<pkal>
Do I recall correctly, that in Let over Lambda there is a claim that the (one) correct way to use a language follows from the language itself? I'd have to look it up again, but what do people think of that?
<beach>
So, you can use anaphoric macros as much as you want, but if you write code for others to read, you should know that there could be people out there who would be slowed doen.
<beach>
*down
<beach>
pkal: If I understand what you are saying, then that is totally wrong. The set of idiomatic phrases in a language is a tiny subset of the set of the grammatical phrases. This goes for natural languages and also programming languages.
<pkal>
beach: that would be my intuition as well, but I thought there was some interesting argument in the book
<beach>
I see.
<younder>
It's more like a compromise. I think describing functions that change the syntax should never fill more than one page and that all developers should be committed to read it before reading the code.
<beach>
younder: And I believe them, because I am such a person. Whenever I see something like (let ((object (find-object ...))) (if object....)) I have to pause for a while, rewrite the IF form in my head to read (if (null object) ..).
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<younder>
But Lisp is typically used in much smaller groups than say Go which, by the way, enforces such rules.
<aeth>
when you write macros, you have to write macros that look like someone else wrote them... or, better yet, that they were built-in
<aeth>
you can fill your code with a dozen do-foo macros that look and behave like dolist and nobody's going to be confused even if they would've done it differently
<aeth>
anaphoric macros are dangerous because they're typically clever
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<aeth>
imo, it's when macros don't fit the do-/with-/define- patterns (that Emacs even syntax highlights for you) that the overuse can be really dangerous
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<beach>
I think that depends a lot. If the macro saves a lot of boilerplate code, then it might be easier for the person reading the code to learn what the macro does than to read all that boilerplate code.
<beach>
Of course, the macro must then represent a true abstraction and it must have a relevant name.
<aeth>
I think a saves-the-boilerplate macro is probably an iteration (do-foo) or ultimately calling make-instance or similar (define-foo) in most cases.
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<aeth>
It would be interesting to do a survey of all-of-quicklisp to see if this is the case
<younder>
Well the extreme is XML. It works OK in HTML, but gets ridiculous for a database declaration. You can't see the forest for the trees.
<aeth>
XML/HTML templates as macros are another thing, but they don't seem too common in absolute numbers, and if you're using them (especially HTML) you're going to be well aware of them because they'll be a key part of what you're doing
<aeth>
HTML-template-as-a-macro is probably the elevator pitch for what Common Lisp can do.
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<mrcom>
I don't see '(acond ((gethash mykey cache1) (setf (foo-baz it) t)) ...'
<mrcom>
as being harder for anyone to read than '(cond ((gethash mykey cache1) (setf (foo-baz (gethash mykey cache1)) t)) ..'
<mrcom>
or any of the more efficient alternatives
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<mrcom>
Hard-and-fast rules tend, in my experience opinion, to be more about a desire to pigeon-hole and over-classify than actual good ideas.
<beach>
mrcom: Good for you. But the issue is with people who are not like you.
<mrcom>
Is there *anyone* who would find the second way easier to mentally parse?
<beach>
mrcom: You are giving one single example. I never said that all anaphoric macros are bad, only that they "tend to violate...". So even if there is not a single person as the one you requested, there can still be plenty of people for other cases.
<mrcom>
Yes, you can overdo he anaphoric thing, but throwing out the baby with the bath water is silly.
<beach>
And I don't think anybody has advocated that.
<mrcom>
OK, I'm good with that. Hard-and-fast rules being a bad idea is itself a hard-and-fast rule.
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<younder>
Three meta levels are necessary and sufficient. For databases - Schema, Records, data. Also in math - Topology, Algebra, function. And in music - Harmony, Notes, tones. Why would it not be true of logic. There must be rules about what we should reason over.
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<younder>
DRY KISS AID ;)
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<yottabyte>
I haven't used lem before, but is it similar to like company-mode? It seems like it has some that auto completion like stuff
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