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<beach>
dbotton: You can't use the pointer information to get to the object, as bike explained. The address of the object may have changed after it was printed, and the object might even have been reclaimed if no longer referenced. You need to store the object with the presentation as SLIME does.
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<Kingsy>
Hi all, so I have a strange issue and I was hoping for some advice. I have a hunchentoot server and upon each connection I am creating a postgres connection then at the end of the connection terminating it. the code looks like this https://bpa.st/3DSA <- all works great when testing it. BUT when I released it into the wild I am getting intermittent errors saying that its trying to open a connection to
<ixelp>
View paste 3DSA
<Kingsy>
postgres but the connection is already established... why might this be? I just cant see the issue.
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<younder>
What is nimbus-core ?
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<Kingsy>
oh its just my program that I wrote.
<Kingsy>
I can paste more code if you are curious what is happening. but this ist he base idea of what is going wrong
<Kingsy>
younder: ^
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<Kingsy>
younder: here is another paste that shows the connect and disconnect functions. they are very simple -> https://bpa.st/U2KA
<younder>
I seem to think you should use pooled connections in a production setting.
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<_death>
why do you use connect-toplevel and not connect
<_death>
also postmodern provides a with-connection operator.. it also has pool functionality and you may also want to check that you compiled the code with postmodern-thread-safe feature..
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<flip214_>
younder: pooled connections, as many as you have threads listening -- else you'll block threads just after accepting, which is worse from a load-balancer POV (yeah, I know, the kernel will happily keep a few accepted connections without anyone accept()ing them, but that's configurable)
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<bike>
defconstant is defined on its page to do somethig equivalent to setf symbol-value, so
<nij->
I see.
<nij->
When defstruct without :read-only on a slot, can I expect all conforming CL to provide a setf-able accessor?
<nij->
Relevant part in the spec "When this option is false or unsupplied, it is implementation-dependent whether the ability to write the slot is implemented by a setf function or a setf expander." https://novaspec.org/cl/f_defstruct
<ixelp>
defstruct | Common Lisp Nova Spec
<beach>
nij-: You can't expect it to be a function named (setf <foo>) is what it is saying.
<nij->
Also, on the same page, "defstruct defines readers for the slots and arranges for setf to work properly on such reader functions."
<nij->
I don't know if this guarantees an accessor or not..
<nij->
beach Right.
<beach>
nij-: It depends on what you mean by "an accessor". You can use SETF to set the value of the slot.
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<nij->
Can I always? I don't find it clearly guaranteed in the doc.
<beach>
nij-: That's a pretty general rule in the standard. There is no guarantee that when it says "accessor" there is a function. It could be a SETF expander.
<nij->
Yes, it provides examples. And it mentions it should work "properly" with setf.
<nij->
I see. But does it guarantees that setf would work?
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<nij->
It only says if read-only is nil, then setf won't accept.
<nij->
But it seems that when non-nil or unprovided, the behavior is under-specified?
<beach>
You could read it that way if you want. But it is clear that it means that it then supplies either a setf function or a setf expander.
<beach>
Feel free to write a WSCL issue to clarify.
<beach>
Well, actually, it seems that the glossary entry for "accessor" refers to "writer" which says it is a function. So then, each entry for an accessor should explicitly mention if the writer could be implemented as a SETF expander.
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* nij-
is lost here.
<nij->
I can write to clarify. But you seem to have found something?
<beach>
nij-: Usually, the standard leaves the option to the implementation of implementing SETF for a particular place to decide whether it is provided as a SETF function, i.e., you can do #'(setf <foo>) and get a function, or whether it is provided as a SETF expander, in which case you can't.
<beach>
nij-: But, what I discovered is that if the dictionary entry says (say) "CAR accessor", and then I look up "accessor" in the glossary, it says that the "writer" is a function.
<beach>
nij-: So then, it seems the glossary doesn't give the implementation an option.
<nij->
However, when you read defstruct page, it only mentions "accessor" twice. It uses "reader" more often.
<nij->
It isn't clear to me that the page guarantees an accessor.
<beach>
Ah, yes, I thought I had seen it somewhere.
<beach>
But then the glossary should be fixed.
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<beach>
Can a name be associated both with a SETF function and with a SETF expander?
<beach>
I personally think that the SETF functions should always be provided.
<beach>
I can't see that there is a downside to that.
<_death>
the terminology is of course confusing.. here clhs uses "accessor function F", "F form", in the glossary it says that an "accessor" is an operator, a "writer" is a function that "write"s, where "write" means to change a slot or a binding.. a lot of weird
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<beach>
Indeed.
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<_death>
the name associated with a setf expander is a symbol, so can't be a setf function (a function named by a (setf <x>))
<beach>
Why is that important?
<_death>
*associated with a setf function
<_death>
maybe I'm misunderstanding your question then..
<beach>
My question was whether the ability to do (SETF (FOO ...) ...) can mean that there is both a function named (SETF FOO) and a SETF expander for FOO.
<_death>
if you have a setf expander for FOO that doesn't prevent having a function (SETF FOO).. SETF would just use the expander
<beach>
Thanks. Then there is no particular reason for an implementation to avoid supplying the SETF function as well.
<_death>
except maybe the potential for confusion
<beach>
Well, what I really think is that if a "writer" can be implemented either way, then it is preferable to have the SETF function. But I suppose some implementations are able to optimize the SETF expander in ways that it can't with the SETF function.
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<nij->
How do I surpress style-warning from compiler?
<nij->
I try to handle it, but this only works for runtime. At compile time the compiler complains.
<beach>
nij-: It is generally a bad idea to suppress warnings, including style warnings.
<bike>
you can suppress it in sbcl with the sb-ext:muffle-conditions declaration, but you should probably just fix the problem instead, indeed
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<nij->
I'm trying to abbreviate my function name lol-so-long to a shorter name lol.
<nij->
While the definition of lol-so-long can be passed to lol easily,
<nij->
I'm struggling with passing the definition of (setf lol-so-long)..
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<nij->
Actually, there are multiple names to be abbreviated.
<bike>
that definitely sounds like something you shouldn't suppress the warning for
<nij->
Just let the compiler complains?
<bike>
no, you should fix the problem
<_death>
btw https://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/CLHS/Issues/iss308_w.htm says +ADD-ACCESSOR was not voted upon.. wonder why.. also it has "GET-SETF-EXPANDER => GET-SETF-EXPANSION" but that's likely a typo and should be "GET-SETF-METHOD-MULTIPLE-VALUE => GET-SETF-EXPANSION"
<beach>
nij-: I don't understand what you mean by "abbreviate".
<bike>
since it probably indicates a later error
<nij->
beach - making alias names for functions, and the new names are usually shorter.
<bike>
just suppressing the condition is like you're walking into a mine with a canary, and the canary dies from fume inhalation, and to "solve" it you drape a towel over the dead bird's cage so you can't see it
<beach>
nij-: And how do you make those aliases?
<beach>
nij-: And why do you want shorter names in the first place?
<beach>
nij-: What you are doing sounds like a terrible idea.
<nij->
Hmm.. I see. Probably I shouldn't do that in the first place.
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<nij->
Is it true that this INLINE declaimabion has no effect?
<nij->
(defmacro apple ()) (declaim (inline apple))
<nij->
because of https://novaspec.org/cl/m_inline "inline and notinline declarations otherwise have no effect when the lexically visible definition of function-name is a macro definition." ?
<ixelp>
inline, notinline | Common Lisp Nova Spec
<bike>
that's what it says, yep.
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<nij->
Interesting.. and no warning or sort is generated..
<nij->
What should I do if I really want to inline that macro expander function?
<bike>
you should reconsider what you want, because that doesn't even make sense
<Inline>
macros are already kinda "inline" since they expand to some code in place after the macro-expansion phase....
<bike>
there is no warning because declaring a macro inline does have the semantic effect of telling the compiler it can use a compiler macro for it.
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<Inline>
ah
<Inline>
when are compiler macros expanded ?
<Inline>
in the compilation phase ?
<bike>
yeah.
<Inline>
but without having a compiler macro in the first place, telling it to use a compiler macro won't have any effect
<nij->
I see.
<bike>
no, really, what does that mean? inline the macro expander function?
<nij->
Yeah, I wasn't thinking about it clearly.
<bike>
it is kind of rude to ask a question you haven't even bothered to make coherent, okay? if you're going to ask a lot of questions that take a lot of effort to answer please put in the minimal effort.
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<nij->
I don't agree nor disagree with you, bike. I can understand where you come from. But I do believe it is more about a matter of level and ability. If my behavior is rude to you, I apologize. But I can't commit to what you suggest (for the above reason). So if this continues and it unsettles you, please ignore my questions. If my behavior is considered awful by a few more people here, please feel free to ban me. In that case, I would be
<nij->
sad, but I'd rather that to be the case. I don't want to task people here much more than what they want either anyway.
<nij->
(And sorry I need to go. I will read the log. Need to get lunch.)
<bike>
geez, i'm not going to ban you, i just want you to take a few seconds to think about what you're asking. if you don't know whether it makes sense that's one thing
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<bike>
but you've been reading the CLHS front to back, apparently, i think by now you know how macro functions work
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<nij->
I did take a few seconds (in this case, minutes). I'm dumber so it may take longer for a true answer to emerge.
<nij->
I just found that there is not a well-defined procedure for me to apply to decide whether I'm ready enough to ask or not.
<nij->
I still find the description of INLINE a bit confusing.
<nij->
Especially the use of "that is" in the quote "inline specifies that it is desirable for the compiler to produce inline calls to the functions named by function-names; that is, the code for a specified function-name should be integrated into the calling routine" https://novaspec.org/cl/m_inline
<ixelp>
inline, notinline | Common Lisp Nova Spec
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<nij->
So a function object has two names, and I declaim one to be inlined.. would it be possibly effective when the other name is used?
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<Shinmera>
an inlinable function can only be produced by defun or flet/labels, and can therefore only have one name.
<Shinmera>
a function produced by lambda is anonymous and by definition does not have a name to be inlined by
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<nij->
Thanks! Is this understanding given in the spec? (I tried searching in novaspec and also the CLHS glossary/I.)
<bike>
it's what you already quoted
<nij->
Wut......?? Which part?
<bike>
if you have, like, (defun foo ...) (declaim (inline foo)) (setf (fdefinition 'bar) #'foo)
<bike>
oops
<bike>
the part "for a specified function-name"
<bike>
which tells you inlining is by name
<bike>
what i was going to say before i hit enter accidentally is that if you then have (bar ...) somewhere, it won't be inlined
<nij->
Why won't (bar ..) be inlined?
<bike>
or won't necessarily be inlined, anyway
<bike>
because you only told it to inline FOO
<nij->
No, but in that quoted sentence,
<bike>
and even if the compiler wanted to inline anyway, it wouldn't know that BAR is defined to have FOO's definition
<nij->
you see, the main object is "functions".
<bike>
functions named by function names.
<nij->
That's why I brought up by saying that "that is" is confusing to me.
<nij->
Yes, so it's about the functions, not their names.
<nij->
It's about the function objects.
<Shinmera>
"that is [to say,]"
<bike>
i understand how you would think that, but it's not the case. inlining works by names.
<nij->
So "that is" is weird, because both clauses mean different things.
<bike>
the function object doesn't even exist at compile time, necessarily, for one thing.
<nij->
It can't..? (I need to think.)
<bike>
sure, if you just write (defun foo ...) in a file somewhere the compiler isn't going to actually make the function
<bike>
it just prep it to exist later when you load the file, but that's after compilation is already finished
<bike>
it preps it*
<nij->
There's eval-when and read time evaluation to complicate the issue. But I need to think.
<bike>
yes, it might be made to exist at compile time through eval-when, but not necessarily. and you can proclaim inline even without any of that. you can try it, put (declaim (inline foo)) (defun foo (x) x) in a file somewhere, do compile-file, and see if foo is fbound before actually loading
<nij->
That wouldn't prove anything, as the spec allows the implementation to ignore the inline declaimer.
<bike>
i'm not proving anything, just giving an example of how it works
<nij->
I think we can only discuss at the level of the description in the spec. And I find it confusing.. I understand that emperically what you said should be the case, but that doesn't align to my understanding about the spec.
<nij->
Right.
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<bike>
you seem to be reading the spec very closely and then are confused when it is unclear or not reflected by reality
<bike>
there are definitely places the spec is unclear and/or badly written and/or empirically wrong
<nij->
Yeah.. perhaps too closely. Funnily, this goes back to my very first question.
<nij->
macro function can be called as usual functions as well
<nij->
so if an implementation chooses to follow what's described before that "that is",
<nij->
then there should be a way to inline macro functions; though in most cases no one would do that.
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<bike>
what would that mean, though
<bike>
inlining a macro function
<nij->
Right. And a point of wscl is to find those out, and create issues. I was thinking at least my stupid questions could at least lead to some of these discoveries.
<bike>
inlining a regular function is pretty straightforward. you put the body of the function where the call to the function is, like you quoted. but that doesn't make sense for macro functions.
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<nij->
Aren't macro functions just normal functions that work on ASTs?
<nij->
And a macro is a name X that associates to a macro function, and lisp knows X when evaluated as the 0th argument in an AST should call that macrofunction to start with.
<nij->
THough I agree, in reality (I can't imagine that) anyone would call macro functions in that kind of way.
<nij->
Anyway, lets put that question aside. For now I still think this is not specified well..
<Inline>
are macro names package bound ?
<bike>
if you want to write up the spec in a formal mathematical kind of way that could be pretty useful
<bike>
macro names are just symbols, so they're generally in packages
<nij->
Inline Yeah
<Inline>
okk
<nij->
bike It doesn't have to be formal as mathematics.. and I doubt that's not possible due to Rice theorem (I guess, I don't claim).
<nij->
But yeah, thanks for sharing, and I understand (and believe you) how it should be understood. I will try to write an issue, but if no one thinks that's necessary that's fine too.
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<Shinmera>
a name is a symbol
<Shinmera>
so
<bike>
it is certainly possible to formally specify programming languages
<nij->
That formality can only captures part of the programming language, assuming the programming language is turing complete.
<nij->
("parts of" - e.g. - syntax)
<nij->
But a Turing complete language's complete semantics cannot be fully captured.
<bike>
obviously this doesn't let you prove that programs halt or what ever, so turing looks on without disapproval
<bike>
and feel free to write up issues for wscl. again, don't get me wrong, lots of the spec is unclear or incorrect. that's why wscl exists in the first place
<nij->
Will do :-)
<bike>
but usually the practical answer is going to diverge from particular spec questions of what "that is" means
<bike>
here is how inlining actually works in reality. you proclaim a function name inline. when the compiler later runs into a defun for that name, it saves the definition in some way distinct from making it actually exist as a function object at compile time. then when it sees a call to that function, by that name, it may dump in the body instead of compiling a call
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<nij->
A sketched proof for why no such formal spec exists https://bpa.st/RPXA But yeah this is off-topic. If interested can query me or lets go to lispcafe.
<ixelp>
View paste RPXA
<nij->
Right.
<bike>
sure why not
<yitzi>
That appears to be proof about testing whether a program conforms to a formal spec, not whether formal specifications can exist.
<nij->
yitzi come here to #lispcafe :)
<yitzi>
I'll pass on that. Thanks anyways
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<skin>
I have a question. How does one create a custom correctable error.
<skin>
I know I can define a "normal" error as with `(define-condition my-error (error)...)`
<skin>
Would one then `(define-condition my-error (cerror) ...)`
<bike>
nah, you just inherit from error. correctability isn't about the condition type, it's about how you signal it
<bike>
you wanna use restarts, or for simple cases, cerror (the function)
<skin>
Can I reuse the `use-value` restart, as in `(restart-case (/ 1 0) (use-value (&optional (v 1000)) v))` in my own code?
<skin>
I don't see any reason why not, as it's all just symbol slinging. Just thinking it through. It feels more idiomatic to make my own restart names, though.
<bike>
you can, yes.
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