<pfd>
I have the April 3rd 2022 clone booting up, without any hassles on SBCL 2.2.1 and SBCL 2.2.2 on two machines. On this, my main machine I upgraded to SBCL 2.2.3, and the current SICL clonings, since the 3rd of APR, have a hard time with Cleavir after the level 5 stage 'satiating all...' point. I'm about to grab that APR 3rd download and copy it
<pfd>
this machine with SBCL 2.2.3, for diagnosis.
<pfd>
I just thought someone else might've been playing with it as much as myself.
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<rotateq>
I should try that too in the next days.
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<jcowan>
Can it be proved that there are no standardized (by the CL spec) objects that are direct instances of T?
<pfd>
jcowan: I assume this a CLOS related 'spec' query, right?
<jcowan>
I don't *think* so, I'm just using CLOS terminology. Equivalently: are there any objects that are not instances of any class except T?
<jcowan>
For example, suppose the class RANDOM-STATE did hot exist. Then random-states would still exist, since they can be created by MAKE-RANDOM-STATE, but they wouldn't belong to any class except T.
<mfiano>
Nope. There are a handful of disjoint system classes, like readtable and restart, but everything touches T
<jcowan>
Everything has to touch T, as pillton pointed out on #lisp.
<mfiano>
Everything touching T is an instance of a system class afaik
<jcowan>
Okay, good.
<mfiano>
readtable, restart, random-state, hash-table, package...maybe more
<jcowan>
Note that an implementation could violate this by having a WEIRD:MAKE-WEIRD-OBJECT that returns objects whose CLASS-OF is T.
<pfd>
'Classes that are defined by defclass (without the :metaclass option) inherit from the superclasses standard-object and t.' from pg. 58 of _Understanding CLOS_ by Lawless/Miller
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<Guest74>
anybody know of any turtle graphics implemented with vector graphics?
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<pfd>
jcowan: Any 'weird' object is some sort of metaclass, which then exists parallel to Standard-Class, synonymous to/with Standard-Object, and as you rightly point out, that weird metaclass can only be a sub-class of T / t.
<jcowan>
Well, that's one kind. But they could also be a kind of built-in object that doesn't happen to have BUILT-IN-CLASS as a class.
<jcowan>
There is no way to *construct* such a thing in CL, but that isn't to say a particular CL implementation can't provide them.
<jcowan>
Although I do have problems with CL metaclasses, perhaps because I know too much about Smalltalk metaclasses.
<pfd>
Agreed. You can't redefine any instances of built-in-class. You also can't use built-in-class or structure-class as a metaclass when defining a class / object.
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<pfd>
I haven't fully grokked Robert Strandh's CLOSTRUM within SICL. Also, I'm not knowledgable regarding Costanza's closer-mop.
<pfd>
I'm just starting to learn more about closer-mop.
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<pillton>
jcowan: Why are you interested in this? What happens if the answer is yes? or no?
<jcowan>
I'm just curious, and not much, respectively
<jcowan>
If there were such direct instances of T, the CLOS structure would be somewhat leaky.
<pillton>
jcowan pfd: I recommend the book, The Art of the Metaobject Protocol. It covers the design of CLOS and offers a number other nuggets which are useful for designing/structuring APIs.
<jcowan>
I've read it, yes.
<jcowan>
Though not for some years.
<pillton>
I don't know what "leaky" means, but CLOS doesn't permeate through the language. For example, you cannot inherit from a system class.
<pfd>
Same here. I need to re-read that seminal book. I've been leaning too heavily on the basics _Understanding CLOS_ Lawless/Miller book, mentioned above, which I was fortunate to scoop for not too dear a few years ago.
<pillton>
Even conditions aren't defined to be compatible with CLOS.
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<jcowan>
pillton: Sure, that's just a restriction on what the user can do.
<Guest74>
I don't even know how to begin to debug this. https://imgur.com/a/YSSKrPk I think I'll just start selling them.
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<jcowan>
However, CONDITION is a class in the class hierarchy: a condition object is of class CONDITION.
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<pillton>
jcowan: Sure, but it isn't required to be an instance of STANDARD-OBJECT nor any of the standard meta objects.
<pillton>
Actually, I might have to check my definition of the CLOS. I might be using it incorrectly. My definition of the CLOS is as defined in Chapter 7 of the standard. I am not sure if that is correct.
<jcowan>
In what sense can a statement in the standard be said to be "incorrect" (outside errata)?
<beach>
pfd: If you have trouble bootstrapping SICL, you can ask questions in #sicl. There shouldn't be any particular problems, but I forgot to push a change to Trucler for a few days and that broke things.
<pfd>
Thanks :beach!
<beach>
Sure.
<pfd>
Oh, OK. :beach, are you Sir Robert Strandh? Or, may you be another main contributor?
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<beach>
pfd: "beach" is the literal translation of "strand" into English, so yes.
<pfd>
:beach Right. Understood Sir!
<beach>
I give you permission to be less formal. :)
<pfd>
Right-o. Thanks :beach.
<beach>
Sure.
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<contrapunctus>
pfd: might you be another Indian Lisper? (Hello from Delhi 🙂)
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<pfd>
No. I love Indian culture, and I agree with the Russia-India cooperation around energy and ruble-rupee workaround!
<pfd>
I'm Greek/Hellenic born in Germany, and brought up in Toronto, Canada, where I still am.
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<pfd>
:contrapunctus sorry I forgot to tag u.
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<char[m]>
Is there some library that facilitates immutable clos? I'm looking for something that will allow me to make a copy of an object while modifying some of the slots of the copy.
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<Josh_2>
Good morning
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<Josh_2>
Can anyone help me out with my macro defining macro, I am trying to pass a class name into the body of the second macro but if I use ,,<class var> I end up with ,<class>
<Josh_2>
I edited that paste to include an example and an expansion
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<mfiano>
Lots of very strange misconceptions evident
<Josh_2>
Cool thats not helpful
<mfiano>
I'm trying to think of where to even begin.
<char[m]>
For anyone else, generic-cl's copy fist the bill pretty well. It would be better if it was automatic though.
<mfiano>
LOCALLY is not serving any purpose here. Why are you generating FUNCALL in a quasiquoted form where the operator is known?
<mfiano>
Why is it that you are calling these slot values. Slots are implementation details that shouldn't be exposed, and you shouldn't be associating an accessor with the concept of a slot value. For example, an AROUND method could easily break that association.
<Josh_2>
Okay listen
<Josh_2>
How about you help me with my problem, and then perhaps say "hmm maybe you should give your methods a different name"
<mfiano>
With that said, you shouldn't ever need to ",,". Break it up into functions that generate the code for you.
<Josh_2>
Alright
<pillton>
I'd probably take a step back and ask more fundamental questions. This looks like the wrong way to implement this.
<mfiano>
Yes, this.
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<pillton>
It looks like you're are trying to make it easier to implement a method for VALIDATE-PAYMENT-INTENT-SLOT.
<Josh_2>
Yes but in this case I would have been better off just copy and pasting :joy:
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<pillton>
I am certainly not advocating copying and pasting. I can't see what you're copying and pasting nor do I have a mental model of the abstraction you're trying to create.
<mfiano>
"How about you help me with my problem...": The problem is usually more fundamental than what is asked, and we are all volunteers here. I am not obligated to help any way other than how I know to break down a problem, when I have the time.
<mfiano>
I understand the frustration coming here after trying something that failed, but that is no way to ask for help.
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<Josh_2>
What is the point of bringing up secondary issues first?
<pillton>
I don't have an issue with how you asked your question. Your question and code just highlights bigger issues that you need to pause and think about.
<Josh_2>
I was just trying to save myself having to write two lines of code :joy:
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<pillton>
Well you can approach your problem as a complication I can live with today, or you could use your problem to learn something from others about how to create abstractions.
<pillton>
My apologies: a complication you can live with*
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<Josh_2>
:facepalm:
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<lisp123mobile>
is there a built in / easy way to get how many digits in a positive integer?
<lisp123mobile>
i guess i could convert to string and count the length but that seems expensive
<rotateq>
ohai lisp123mobile
<rotateq>
ah for the digits ...
<lisp123mobile>
rotates: hey o/
<jackdaniel>
how about (ceiling (log number 10))
<rotateq>
an easy way would be via (ceiling (log n 10))
<rotateq>
jackdaniel: hmm you were faster :)
<lisp123mobile>
thanks!!
<rotateq>
so this is nice too if you need it for different integer bases
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<lisp123mobile>
so my unique id function is complete - start with universal time and add a global counter to it (adjusting for its number of digits)
<rotateq>
cool
<jackdaniel>
why isn't it just global counter?
<jackdaniel>
(or gensym in a matter of fact)
<lisp123mobile>
persistence across sessions
<zeroc00l0>
Where does it gather the time data from?
<lisp123mobile>
get-universal-time
<lisp123mobile>
although my idea is slightly flawed
<zeroc00l0>
What happens if the system clock is set back N seconds?
<jackdaniel>
if you have sessions to be persistent with then you may also store the global counter value
<lisp123mobile>
jack daniel - i wanted to avoid that
<jackdaniel>
or use random uuid (v4? I don't remember)
<jackdaniel>
the chance of collision is close to 0
<lisp123mobile>
uuid.lisp requires ironclad
<rotateq>
you *could* write as another possibility a WITH-FOO macro that starts with (let ((*gensym-counter* 0)) ...). maybe, or I don't understand the problem
<rotateq>
or maybe a bad idea of mine again :)
<lisp123mobile>
want to minimise dependencies in general
<lisp123mobile>
zero - fair point but running on my own computer so not worried about that
<zeroc00l0>
What happens if the program starts, creates an id, crashes, restarts, creates an id, all within the same unit of the system clock?
<beach>
It is probably faster than LOG.
<jackdaniel>
beach: but its with assumed base 2?
<beach>
But you can scale it.
<lisp123mobile>
beach: thanks!
<beach>
... and it works for arbitrary integers too. LOG may not.
<rotateq>
beach: Yes I thought on that too and wrote them in query, but it was not directly what he asked for. So your advises to me sink in. :)
<jackdaniel>
will using integer-length /and/ scaling be faster than log?
<rotateq>
jackdaniel: Maybe depends how the impl deals with calculating LOG.
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<jackdaniel>
lisp123mobile: if you just need make-v4-uuid then you may
<lisp123mobile>
jack daniel: specifically the problem is i can’t store global id in a bknr data store and then use it in another store object. and i don’t want to write to file or another persistent storage for this
<jackdaniel>
just comment out the ironclad part
<beach>
LOG has to be scaled as well.
<lisp123mobile>
jack daniel: ok will have another look, i wonder how it compares speed wise vs using a combo of time / counter
<jackdaniel>
lisp123mobile: can't you just class-allocate the counter?
<lisp123mobile>
i will google that tonight
<jackdaniel>
for class-allocated slots you need an instance too, but the slot is shared across all instances
<jackdaniel>
so it might not be applicable to your use case
<lisp123mobile>
that’s what i was thinking too when you mentioned it
<jackdaniel>
another option is to define a persistent singleton object
<jackdaniel>
called /global-session/ ,)
<lisp123mobile>
that’s what i did
<jackdaniel>
then do you need anything besides an ordinary counter?
<lisp123mobile>
but it’s annoying with bknr because i need to update it outside of the object creations
<lisp123mobile>
the easiest thing is just to write to file a counter of course
<jackdaniel>
hmm
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<lisp123mobile>
uuid is probably the cleanest way, as you say it avoids ironclad for the basic functionality
<jackdaniel>
create a fork uuid<=4 :)
<lisp123mobile>
i should :) unique ids are very important as I realise more and more!
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<zacque>
Ya, that's why the library needs to keep track of it
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<jackdaniel>
so that's what cl-autowrap does, it groks the .h file to keep track of it
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<zacque>
Does the library user need to depend on cl-autowrap?
<zacque>
I'm looking into it right now
<zacque>
Maybe I can use it to autowrap all C headers
<lisp123>
mfiano: thanks for sharing
<jackdaniel>
that is my impression - it generates the spec file that may be distributed with the project
<Nilby>
libc is big and wrapping all of libc in lisp is mostly pointless, since the native CL are usually preferable. usually people pick the few function they need and wrap those.
<_death>
beach: re. LOG I noticed the other day that its implementation in sbcl is weird.. (log n 2) basically translates to (/ (log n) (log 2)) i.e. it evaluates (log 2) each time.. so I resorted to doing (defun lg (x) (* (log x) #.(/ (log 2))))
<Nilby>
there's some things in libc that are hard to duplicate in CL, e.g. setlocale
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<jackdaniel>
Nilby: that's when you want to deal with writing bindings, automatic wrappers are a nobrainer solution for trivial-foolib-bindings
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<jackdaniel>
(and less errorprone at that)
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<rotateq>
maybe I should rename my newer repo for emulating Racket loop types to "trivial-racket-loops" :)
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<lisp123>
rotateq: good branding :)
<jackdaniel>
imo libs and features ported from scheme/racket to cl should be called unhygienic-<something>
<jackdaniel>
a bit mocking, but oh well, the term itself is a mockery
<rotateq>
lisp123: the idea came up here and maybe it can give some writers a better time
<lisp123>
I wonder who came up with that term
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<rotateq>
jackdaniel: oh :)
<jackdaniel>
lisp123: clearly someone who did not like common lisp. to turn the coin, it could be called 'sterilze' as an opposite to 'organic'
<rotateq>
this "How to mock a mockingbird" is rather trivial
<rotateq>
*book
<rotateq>
jackdaniel: and we want to build organisms, not pyramids
<lisp123>
although 'little schemer' probably made their language less 'industrial'
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<rotateq>
wrong channel :( should have gone to #lispcafe
<lisp123>
jackdaniel: p.s. thanks for your help on bknr nested objects on reddit
<lisp123>
makes it much smoother now that I can nest objects...such a great datastore it is
<zacque>
Nilby: But if that function is being used again and again across many libraries, won't that cause a lot of code duplication?
<zacque>
I know nothing about `setlocale`, thanks for pointing it out
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<beach>
_death: Interesting!
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<mange>
Hi! Does anyone feel like helping me work out a MOP issue I'm having? I'd like to choose a different effective slot definition class depending on the values of fields in my direct slot definition. Is there a better way to do it than communicating down the stack with a special variable bound in an around method on COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-SLOT-DEFINITION?
<mange>
I've tried redefining COMPUTE-EFFECTIVE-SLOT-DEFINITION's primary method, which can work but doesn't seem portable. I've also tried using CHANGE-CLASS to change the slot into the type that I want after it's made but SBCL explicitly checks for and rejects that.
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<Bike>
yeah, i think amop says you can't change the class of slot definitions
<zacque>
Wow, first timing seeing the CLOS-MOP site, comes in very handy
<beach>
It does.
<zacque>
beach: Thank you! =D
<jackdaniel>
zacque: check out l1sp.org , it is a metasearch for clhs, mop and a few other specifications
<beach>
Sure. When I was implementing CLOS, I was going crazy trying to use the AMOP book. So I created the site to keep my sanity.
<jackdaniel>
beach: did you type things by hand, copy from pdf or you've converted some existing source code to make clos-mop?
<beach>
Good question. I can't remember. I guess I must have typed it.
<jackdaniel>
I see, thanks
<beach>
The existing web-based version was protected, so I couldn't use it.
<rotateq>
And I'm not sure, it was mentioned in the Keene book, when I make a subclass and give additional `:type` option to a slot that comes from the superclass, they are forged together with AND.
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<rotateq>
It seems a nice quicklisp project vanished, and I can't find it on github anymore. It's "varnishq" and in depth talked about in a newer German CL book. Maybe I have the source on another computer or contact the author.
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<rotateq>
Bike: Strange that I didn't find it, but very thanks.
<rotateq>
It's a meta parsing tool that was applied for "Deutsche Welle" to parse varnish caches with a special DSL.
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<didi>
A stream designator can be t, nil or a stream. How do I write a typespec for it? For example, to use inside a `check-type'. (check-type s (or t nil stream)) isn't it.
<Bike>
(or (member t nil) stream)
<didi>
Thank you, Bike.
<Bike>
no problem
<didi>
Unrelated, the different interpretations of STREAM for FORMAT and various PRINT functions are a little annoying.
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<aeth>
wouldn't boolean work, too?
<aeth>
i.e. (or boolean stream)
<Bike>
sure, but i think member is clearer, since it's in fact not being used as a boolean
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<pjb>
didi: or (or (eql t) (eql nil) stream)
<didi>
pjb: Thank you.
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<jcowan>
Josh_2: Often secondary issues are easier to solve and build momentum..
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<Guest74>
I don't suppose anybody here is familiar with the mathematics of spirographs?
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<Guest74>
welp, I can't center or scale them properly yet, but at least the lines are drawn properly. https://imgur.com/a/m031tkp
<rotateq>
continued fractions apply :)
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