<zacque>
You can use `CHAR-CODE` for a character to get its character/unicode number
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<hashfunc1ebd>
Guest74: zacque: Bike: thanks for the help
<Bike>
no problem
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<patrix>
good morning beach!
<zacque>
My pleasure
<beach>
patrix: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<patrix>
beach: not new, just was away for a long time
<beach>
Ah, OK. Welcome back then.
<patrix>
I was briefly around 2-3 years ago or
<patrix>
thanks :)
<patrix>
basically I took a detour around Clojure for the past 2-3 years, now I miss/yearn for CL
<beach>
Makes sense.
<zacque>
patrix: Interesting, what do you miss in CL? Will you mind elaborate on that?
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<zacque>
Just curious, and maybe your POV can help me seeing CL from another perspective
<patrix>
it’s hard to define in words, more of a feeling
<patrix>
for better and for worse, Clojure is married to the JVM, which brings a healthy ecosystem of libraries, but also brings the JVM (and js) lol
<patrix>
e.g. adding a new dependency to a project either means restarting your jvm/repl, or knowing in advance you want to do that and going through a few contorsions to allow dynamically loading new deps
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<patrix>
the webdev libraries push you heavily towards mountains of dependencies to support React and clojurescript etc
<patrix>
the development experience is amazing using those but I feel dirty every time I see all the deps/compilation process/11MB javascript payload (during dev, 1MB in prod) lol
<patrix>
all the exciting stuff is soooo complex and enterprisey, like datomic and XTDB… and since I have no business need for any of that at this time, I just felt like going back to something more simple, maybe messier sometimes , but simpler
<patrix>
mind you these are all surface thoughts that I had when I said hey let me load up an sbcl repl and slime and remember how it works
<zacque>
Interesting, sounds like JVM limits the dynamic/interactivity nature of Lisp built on top of it
<patrix>
it does yes
<zacque>
I guess the JS part is...normal? Ha!
<patrix>
I can’t remember where but that has been touched on by Rich Hickey in a talk or article somewhere, where he says that clojure’s repl is usually a revelation for the people coming from the Java world, and a bit handicapped for people coming from the CL world (paraphrasing the idea here)
<patrix>
and a LOT of clojure people are coming from the java/js world so that kindof affects what is built/how it’s structured, I guess? again, just a general feeling not a thorough analysis
<zacque>
That's good enough, thanks for sharing!
<patrix>
OTOH being based on the JVM allowed me to build some tools that are actually used by coworkers, easier as it’s easier to build and package them, and easier for the coworkers to actually run it
<patrix>
the same tools I had built with sbcl ran well on my mac but not on theirs… for various reasons, ie libraries not in the same location because I use macports they use brew..
<patrix>
it was an easier sell with clojure/java
<zacque>
I see
<zacque>
But if using CFFI, perhaps you can configure *foreign-directories-path*
<zacque>
Maybe CFFI needs better integration with mac toolings
<zacque>
But I see your point
<patrix>
well the issues came down with save-lisp-and-die, and I suppose the sbcl binary itself, having those paths or versions hardcoded
<patrix>
didn’t really dig down too much into it at that point
<patrix>
nevermind then having to figure out how to create the executables on windows as well, for some reason that caused issues that I also didn’t take the time to figure out
<char[m]>
patrix: what about #!/usr/bin/env -S sbcl --script?
<patrix>
the idea was to not have to tell these people to install sbcl though
<patrix>
everyone in the company has a jdk or jre, none of them have a Lisp interpreter installed and most have no idea what a Lisp is beyond “this thing patrix keeps talking about"
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<patrix>
so clojure did the trick lol
<char[m]>
patrix: At my non-lisp job, I have a common lisp script that I think my coworkers will want to get their hands on in the comming weeks. Hopefuly it goes over well.
<patrix>
hopefully
<char[m]>
Are there any videos of Norvig presenting his slides? particularly "design patterns for dynamic languages".
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<patrix>
never seen the slides nor the talk, myself
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<zacque>
patrix: I see. So how do you plan to use CL now? Are you now using Clojure at work, then CL for personal projects?
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<Andrew>
except for better concurrency (which can also be acheived in CL and scheme), why would you use clojure?
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<Andrew>
Anyways, one problem here: I'm using SBCL with vlime (Basically slime for Vim instead of Emacs, I usually use Emacs but this is a special setup), and I was like: let's evaluate "'(symbols blah blah)", but it told me that "blah" isn't defined as a variable
<Andrew>
I started questioning my existance and if common lisp is trying to kill me
<Andrew>
But sbcl's normal repl evaluates it correctly
<rotateq>
And if you do just `'blah`?
<sm2n>
it isn't picking up the ' somehow
<Andrew>
one sec
<sm2n>
what if you do ''(symbols blah blah)
<Andrew>
'blah: the variable blah is unbound
<rotateq>
or `(quote (symbols blah blah))`
<Andrew>
the quote symbols thing: blah unbound
<rotateq>
And don't question your existence cause of that. :)
<Andrew>
my brain exploded because i thought that i suddenly forgot how common lisp works
<Andrew>
but still, this error is insane
<mfiano>
vlime is full of bugs like that. Unfortunate, because it's not really maintained anymore. Not that I use vim anymore for CL, but still disappointing.
<rotateq>
Andrew: I like this emoji when the head explodes, like I feel often.
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* Andrew
can't see emojis for being on a random vt
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<Andrew>
if vlime is full of bugs
<Andrew>
... damn, I'm just gonna rice my emacs properly on all computers
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<Andrew>
not sure how to use emacs on openbsd
<rotateq>
If you want vim like for the editing part, try Spacemacs.
<rotateq>
Ah okay I don't know either.
<mfiano>
I just build it from ports on the beastie, not sure about the blowfish.
<Andrew>
rotateq: I've tried emacs distributions before, I consider them to be ... quite bloated and stuff
<sm2n>
Emacs is in openbsd ports too
<Andrew>
Oh, nice
<Andrew>
I'm gonna run it on my debian server for compat reasons for now
<Andrew>
anyways, gonna get some rice
<rotateq>
Andrew: Yes indeed, that's for sure.
* Andrew
looks for some docs/guides on ricing emacs
<Andrew>
first thing is adding melpa
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<Josh_2>
Gm
<Josh_2>
Slightly off topic but where can I find some Lisp 1 code?
<pjb>
Josh_2: scheme is a lisp-1, so any scheme code.
<Josh_2>
pfft
<Josh_2>
I mean actual lisp 1, not scheme
<pjb>
Oh, in papers.
<pjb>
We have the sources of LISP 1.5, with examples running on LISP 1.5.
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<Josh_2>
I found the most basic example in McCarthy's history of lisp
<Josh_2>
(PLUS X (TIMES 3 Y) Z) and by (ALL (X) (OR (P X) (Q X Y)))
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<Josh_2>
I swear someone in here has shown that you can run 1.5 in Common Lisp? Is there an example of that around?
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<mfiano>
I know pjb knows an example of some 50-60 year old code that runs on a CL implementation. It's been like 10 years since I saw that link though, and I can't remember where or what it was.
<mfiano>
That's the one I was thinking of. His site has been down for some time though.
<Josh_2>
Thanks mfiano
<Josh_2>
pjb: can you fix your website :(
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<patrix>
zacque: good question. Work is all-in on AWS nowadays, so CL and Clojure are both second (or third?) class citizens there.. it’s all python, typescript, java.. Anyway I’m in infrastructure not coding lol… Basically most of my CL or CLJ stuff is personal/hobby anyway, just some of it happened to carry over to work for whatever reason
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<patrix>
Andrew: “why would anyone use Clojure” some of my ramblings above might have answered that. Clojure’s a language/runtime hosted on the JVM, which does make it palatable for many scenarios. Enterprise loves Java, too lol. Its immutable data structures and map literals are attractive to me, as well…
<patrix>
Hopefully this isn’t starting a language wars, just personal thoughts from me
<Josh_2>
Can reverse proxy behind nginx and use certbot for https ;)
<patrix>
Josh_2: it’s ok, I’m not here to win
<pjb>
I have a debian that is too old, so software cannot be updated so nothing works anymore :-( I need to re-install from scratch a new version of the system.
<Josh_2>
pjb: Nice :sunglasses:
<Josh_2>
Pretty epic to have a system that old that was still running
<flip214>
pjb: "too old" as in "apt signatures no longer known"? Then just use snapshots.debian.org or update the keyring to latest...
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<contrapunctus>
pjb: perhaps this is a good time to move to Guix? 😏️
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<pjb>
flip214: debian maintained flip over too often!
<pjb>
contrapunctus: there would be the same problem with any distribution really.
<pjb>
New versions of program may depend on new versions of libraries, and of libc! So you cannot keep running the same system for 30 years, and have up-to-date programs such as certbot… :-(
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<flip214>
pjb: well, then just run testing, and have continuous updates without any big jumps
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<Andrew>
I have different opinions towards Java, but okay
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<patrix>
Sure, I’m not endorsing it or asking anyone to like it lol
<patrix>
in that work scenario, it was more palatable for both me (use clojure, which is lispy, rather than java/js/ts/python/etc) and for colleagues (run this jar file or script with embedded jar file, move on and keep doing your important work)
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<contrapunctus>
patrix: it's great that you found a solution. Now I'm curious if ABCL can do the same 🤔
<patrix>
Honestly, it might have lol. Then again, it was also nice to add another tool to my belt
<patrix>
the rewrite of some tools from CL to CLJ also gave me a chance to rethink many things, so it was a good exercise for my personal development as well
<Andrew>
That sounds like a good use-case (though in that case I'd tell everyone about why Java suck)
<patrix>
I’m just one guy in a multinational corp with established “standards” and with an industry-wide pull in some directions so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<patrix>
I’ll just keep using CL and CLJ and so on as personal secret weapons ;)
<contrapunctus>
patrix: at any rate, welcome back to CL 🙂
<patrix>
thanks :)
<patrix>
Like that time I live-updated a site (written in CL) to fix a bug while the person was telling me about the bug, and I announced it was fixed…
<contrapunctus>
Nice
<Andrew>
patrix: And show off how "you" can write almost bug-free code and pretend that it's them being dumb :)
<Andrew>
(People here be like: I only know how to use C++ and Python to make programs that solve zero practical issues and don't give people insight on computer science either, because that's all our school has.)
<patrix>
I wish my code was bug-free hahahah
<Andrew>
s/Python/Scratch/
<patrix>
ouch @ only python and c++
<Andrew>
patrix: It's much easier, in my experience, to write bug-free *Lis*
<Andrew>
patrix: *Scratch
<patrix>
ouch @ only Scratch and C++
<Andrew>
And this isn't even elementary school, this is middle school, and scratch
<Andrew>
Yeah
<patrix>
I don’t know if it’s easier to write the bug-free code in Lisps, but I sure know it’s easier to write the code and to test it/fix it lol
<Andrew>
You mean REPL-based testing and debugging?
<patrix>
wrote it and fixed it by the time someone else wrote a class definition in Java lol
<Andrew>
Class conflict is inevitable
<patrix>
yeah, using the REPL and writing/testing functions incrementally and poking at data…
<Andrew>
... in Object-Oriented programming
<Andrew>
-- karl marx
<patrix>
haha @ Karl Marx
<Josh_2>
To get them you should write bug ridden CL code, that'll confuse them!
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<patrix>
Hahaha
<patrix>
They’re already thoroughly confused when they watch me use emacs
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<rotateq>
patrix: I mean you could go ahead and adapt the code from the AMOP book to finally give Java a reasonable OO system via Clojure.
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<patrix>
lol
<patrix>
well if I could or had the heart to do that I wouldn't be a "senior cloud engineer" whatever that means
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<edgar-rft>
I'm more a yell-at-cloud engineer
<patrix>
I mean that’s pretty much what I do
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<ck_>
only at the senior ones though
<patrix>
hahaha
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<Jacobis9000>
Hello, I was recommended this channel by beach on #clschool. I am new to Common Lisp and thoroughly enjoying learning!
<rotateq>
Then very much welcome here too, Jacobis9000.
<Jacobis9000>
Hey man, you're everywhere!
<rotateq>
As long as no one kicks me out for a reason. :)
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<edgar-rft>
hello Jacobis9000 :-) yes, we're here, too
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<pjb>
patrix: if you had the clout you'd be the cloud!
<jackdaniel>
perhaps instead of working on list of lists you should make it a list of column-specifier instances?
<contrapunctus>
jackdaniel: thanks for the suggestion...why is that preferable?
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<jackdaniel>
you know, data encapsulation and all that jazz
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<jackdaniel>
you may also extend the column-specifier in the future and you won't need to worry that you've put destructuring-bind with three elements somewhere in the code
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<contrapunctus>
Hm...I guess I might switch to classes, then 🤔
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<jackdaniel>
also you will gain bonus points for fetishizing clos ;)
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<contrapunctus>
Ahahaha
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