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<pjb>
hayley: you're right, indeed. Since the values are accumulated on the stack as parameter for the VALUES function.
<pjb>
So we need only one multiple value register per thread.
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<lisp123>
lisptips.com is one of my favourite websites
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<zacque>
Is there a function that append to a list if the argument is non-nil, and don't append if is nil?
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<zacque>
I feel like there is a clever way to achieve this with some built-in function
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<Xach>
zacque: it is never clever to append to the end of a list
<zacque>
E.g. (foo 1 2) => '(1 2), (foo 1 2 3) => '(1 2 3), but the thing is parameter of 3 is &optional, not of &rest
<zacque>
Xach: Oh, okay...
<Xach>
singly-linked lists aren't good at adding to the end, unless you do some bookkeeping to track the end in some other way
<Xach>
Sometimes it must be done anyway
<Xach>
There isn't a clever function for what you describe, though.
<zacque>
Xach: I see, thanks for informing
<zacque>
Xach: What is the bookkeeping method you meant for tracking the end?
<zacque>
Like storing (last <list>) to a variable?
<zacque>
Or storing `cdr` of a list?
<zacque>
Or something index variable?
<Xach>
zacque: always keeping track of the last cons of the list, and updating whenever appending. so instead of just storing the head cons, you store both the head and tail. then you have to use new functions to work with those two conses sensibly.
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<Xach>
I think there are simple queue examples to be found for this idea
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<zacque>
Ah, make sense, it's like having a pointer pointing to the end of the linked list
<zacque>
Hmmm, what the COLLECT macro does is not obvious to me
<hayley>
It maintains a pointer to the end of the linked list, and "appending" modifies the end, and the pointer.
<hayley>
Doing destructive operations on linked lists hurts my head, honestly. But collecting like this is bearable.
<jeko>
zacque: what are you ultimately trying to do? There may be other ways to achieve your goal that don't involve keeping pointers around
<zacque>
hayley: Oh, so every calls to the `function` in the `body` will append to the end of the list?
<hayley>
Right.
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<zacque>
jeko: Let me see, I want to build a funcall form dynamically
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<zacque>
The problem is that the function has some optional parameter, but I can't just pass nil as an argument, cause you won't know whether the default value is nil
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<zacque>
So I think it's best to build a shorter list when there is no optional argument
<Xach>
well, you may be able to use the suppliedp feature
<Xach>
Oh, I think probably not, sorry.
<zacque>
No, cause the interface is fixed
<zacque>
So, given that the function "signature" is (defun foo (a b &optional c d e)), I want (foo 1 2) => '(1 2), (foo 1 2 3) => '(1 2 3), (foo 1 2 3 4 5) => '(1 2 3 4 5)
<zacque>
It looks simple, but I couldn't think of a simple way to do that
<zacque>
Nvm, I should have come up with a working solution first, then ask for a simpler approach.
<beach>
I would not consider doing that myself, but people are of course free to use the system as they please. I am more interested in the properties of the system itself, and I have plenty of work with just that.
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<prokhor__>
White_Flame: I dont want to argue about mere rumors, but my info was, that the owners finally decided to sell theyr tagged architecture patents & release the rest...
<_death>
there are other object stores like pclos and metastore.. that, too, seem not to be publicly available (code-wise)
<White_Flame>
ah, cool then
<White_Flame>
what I heard was quite a few months ago by now
<beach>
Every time I hear "object store", I think of a system that is meant to be used in order to store objects from a non-persistent image to secondary memory. None of that stuff is needed on a system with universal persistence.
<prokhor__>
did you use the vlm - or even the original Genera?
<prokhor__>
@ White_Flame
<White_Flame>
I read everything there is about genera/opengenera, and tinkered with VLM a bit, and wrote an Ivory emulator
<White_Flame>
but not a serious user of it in any capacity, just interested in what the tech is
<prokhor__>
I am thinking of simply "reusing" the source code for at least statice & joshua for some time now...
<White_Flame>
that should just be all "userspace" as far as I'm aware
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<prokhor__>
I even had in mind reviving SCL, like there are efforts for interlisp..
<prokhor__>
yeah, i am analyzing the code for some time now...
<White_Flame>
all the stuff for using local heap regions can be discarded, as they're just GC optimization. not sure what other genera specifics there are in there
<White_Flame>
(unless there's quota limits involved, I guess)
<prokhor__>
do you know what exactly the VLM200 file does? does it give an initial lisp system? is it parts of the sys/sys2 modules compiled?
<White_Flame>
I don't know, I deal with booting from VLM-style images which don't hit lisp system files yet
<prokhor__>
k...
<prokhor__>
do you think theres potential in the idea of reviving it as soon as it will be possible? eg. with some new compiler & some multicore kernel?
<White_Flame>
I don't think so. I think a workalike on top of CL with a compatibility lib would be a better option
<prokhor__>
like: developing acual code with a new version of genera, not mere retrocomputing
<prokhor__>
how about porting the code, say, to sbcl?
<White_Flame>
my ivory emulator compiles ivory functions in to native common lisp functions
<White_Flame>
(which twiddle a bunch of emulated state)
<prokhor__>
is it on github? link? (pls ;) )
<White_Flame>
hmm, no only on my local repos right now. It hangs after executing a few hundred thousand boot instructions currently
<prokhor__>
i figured out that at least a lot of the macro definitions from genera also work on modern common lisps...
<beach>
prokhor__: How would this "new version of genera" happen?
<prokhor__>
you mean my plan/ agenda?
<White_Flame>
my desire is actually just to glean ideas from it, not reimplement it
<beach>
prokhor__: I guess so, yes.
<prokhor__>
beach: 1. write a new compiler & gc
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<random-nick>
wasn't there some talk about a official-ish modern release of genera?
<White_Flame>
yes, but the "current" genera is still only for VLM, and VLM is now for x86 & mac m1
<prokhor__>
2. rewriting the kernel, mimicking the symbols the original scheduler package exports
<White_Flame>
(still not open source either)
<beach>
prokhor__: I see.
<prokhor__>
3. (?) write some translator form original clim to clim2 or even mcclim
* White_Flame
is afk
<prokhor__>
4. trying to reuse as much as possible, until somebody changes it..
<prokhor__>
thats as far as i got...
<beach>
prokhor__: What about the legal aspect of it?
<beach>
prokhor__: Your plan sounds very illegal to me.
<prokhor__>
i'd be happy to get any feedback from you
<prokhor__>
well... thats why i am waiting atm...
<beach>
OK.
<White_Flame>
no need to wait, fiddle now, release later
<beach>
So I personally don't think genera is good enough for modern needs.
<beach>
It did not take into account attacks from the Internet.
<beach>
And I don't think it had universal persistence.
<prokhor__>
but yes: even if i could manage to make 1-3 happen alone, i couldnt even put it on github to attract a community..
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<prokhor__>
beach: at least i was considering to use a rewrite of its mail client for you CLOSOS :D
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<beach>
Heh, OK.
<prokhor__>
yeas, there is a lot to be done.. on the other side theres sth to build on...
<beach>
I understand your point.
<prokhor__>
in 300k LOC there should be at least some stuff, which hasnt to be reinvented..
<prokhor__>
also:
<prokhor__>
vlm runs as a linux-process, so protection could come from linux
<prokhor__>
(you have to disable SELinux to use it though)
<Guest74>
lots of code dealing with 1bit graphics to be saved.
<prokhor__>
also: everything in genera is already written in clos or flavor plus well documented..
<prokhor__>
i think its not that hard to write some transalator from flavor to clos, allegro even still has some support for flavors..
<beach>
prokhor__: If you want a system that has all the nice software that Genera does, I think your idea is fine, modulo the legal aspect of it. Any translation of existing software would be derived work. However, my goal is to try to prove that we can do better, not to have something complete from the start.
<prokhor__>
beach: LispWorks' knowledgeworks subsystem implements nameless classes for its object system (AMOP) do you think that a prerequisite for a oodb?
<prokhor__>
i see...
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<prokhor__>
a concept car like oberon...
<beach>
prokhor__: Again, I am not thinking in terms of an object-oriented data base. I am considering universal persistence which will make such things unnecessary.
<prokhor__>
could you point me to sth explaining universal persistence? link?
<prokhor__>
i only just read the first 3 chapters of you CLOSOS specs..
<beach>
prokhor__: Dinner is imminent here, so I may not have the time. But it basically means that there is no distinction between primary and secondary memory. All is just primary as far as the user is concerned. When you turn the system on, it is in the state it was in when you turned it off.
<prokhor__>
*primary memory serving as cache for secondary*
<beach>
You can view it that way if you like. But the operations are those of the primary memory.
<prokhor__>
how do you intend to save the image between boots?
<beach>
That is documented in a specific chapter. Techniques are known. I think I invented the second one.
<prokhor__>
*enjoy your dinner* :)
<beach>
It is saved as snap shots, so even a crash will have the image saved.
<beach>
Thanks.
<prokhor__>
thx for the answers & feedback...
<beach>
Pleasure.
<beach>
Feel free to ask again. I'll be back tomorrow morning (UTC+2).
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<Demosthenex>
ok, so i'm confused. i have a function that does something, i hit compile and it recompiles fine. but then i have a dispatch table with an entry referring to that function, why do i have to refresh the dispatch eevery time too?
<Demosthenex>
i thought calling it by name is enough
<Bike>
Demosthenex: do you have 'foo in the table, or #'foo?
<Demosthenex>
Bike: #'foo
<Demosthenex>
i thought that was preferred?
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<Bike>
well, there you go. that will resolve immediately, so it will be the original definition
<Demosthenex>
ok, i'll trry a normal ', ty
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<mfiano>
Demosthenex: Yeah there is a runtime lookup of the fedefinition with a quote, but sharpsign-quote refers to the function that exists right then and there.
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<mfiano>
For some definition of runtime that is. As always, things get hairy when talking about compilation phases of CL.
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<Demosthenex>
np, i applied a best practice i didn't fully grok
<Demosthenex>
learned something new
<Demosthenex>
i just wrapped my project in postmodern with-transaction, and a few other error handle points so i could hotreload and retry, then was confused why it never happened ;]
<mfiano>
quote will always refer to a function in the global environment, which you can use to your advantage in cases like this, or when you need to disambiguate a local flet/labels function.
<Demosthenex>
it'll stick with me now that i've hit it ;]
<mfiano>
It's exciting when you discover something new about Lisp and gives you a stronger appreciation for how well it is designed.
<jackdaniel>
mfiano: did you use in cl-sdl2 an opengl context in a dedicated thread?
<masinter>
designed by committee
<White_Flame>
Demosthenex: technically that is an optimization practice, not necessarily "best" depending on situation
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<random-nick>
isn't "designed by committee" usually disparaging when it comes to programming related things?
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<_death>
usually, but (i) the committee did a pretty good job (thanks masinter) and (ii) not all of CL was designed by a committee, much came from its predecessors..
<Guest74>
random-nick: it probably depends on who says it.
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<_death>
in this case I'm guessing that the committee much simplified funcall/apply semantics, as maclisp was much gnarlier
<mfiano>
jackdaniel: I should do a writeup of my method sometime, but the short answer is no. I use one of Sly's builtin features to essentially run OpenGL in the REPL's thread, with a hack to make it seem non-blocking.
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<_death>
for example you could funcall arrays, special functions, symbols, and functional objects (think funcallable instances) like streams.. looking at the chinual I also notice some format directives that have been simplified/dropped.. like ~:| which would clear the screen (if possible) or ~Q which had format call a function (kinda like ~/, but function didn't need to be named)