<contrapunctus>
mayureshkathe: after pjb 's suggestion yesterday, I started toying with the idea of a Common Lisp software developer cooperative with a fellow-Indian-Common-Lisper. But I must say I've never done anything like that before. Any pointers for getting started?
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<mayureshkathe>
contrapunctus: can you elaborate on the said "cl software developer cooperative"?
<mayureshkathe>
contrapunctus: can i know who's that fellow-indian-common-lisper?
<contrapunctus>
mayureshkathe: re: cooperatives, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_cooperative . I found a few contemporary examples of software cooperatives online. As for my friend, they are in this channel, but I'd rather not say who they are unless they choose to reveal themselves :D
<mayureshkathe>
contrapunctus: with over 30 years of experience in the industry, it surely doesn't look like cooperatives could even survive, let alone thrive.
<mayureshkathe>
contrapunctus: makes different people dance to different tunes, mostly of their own choosing.
<mayureshkathe>
contrapunctus: i meant to say; "money" makes different people dance to different tunes, mostly of their own choosing.
<mayureshkathe>
contrapunctus: dictatorship becomes a necessary component for communism to work.
<mayureshkathe>
contrapunctus: and very frankly, i "hate" communism.
<mayureshkathe>
contrapunctus: glad to know that there are indian commonlisp developers on this channel. would love to meet them all, in-person, some day.
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<mayureshkathe>
contrapunctus: let's see how you get your cooperative to work. keep in touch with me via mayuresh@kathe.in
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<mayureshkathe>
beach: good morning to you too. good to see you after quite a while. :)
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<contrapunctus>
mayureshkathe: /join #lispcafe 🤔️
<mayureshkathe>
contrapunctus: sure.
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<mayureshkathe>
contrapunctus: nothing happened on lispcafe.
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<contrapunctus>
"For a moment, nothing happened." ... "Then, after a second or so, nothing continued to happen." 🙃️
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<jackdaniel>
a new webassembly version features multiple values returned from blocks and functions
<jackdaniel>
(version of the specification that is*)
<rotateq>
That sounds familiar.
<rotateq>
I came to the thought some days ago that I could think of multiple values in CL as of being tuples. And for a type signature it can be better too than returning with just a list or a vector.
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<pjb>
contrapunctus: just start up a company, and hire programmers. As a boss (project leader), you can tell them what tools and language to use. But first, find a paying customer!
<rotateq>
Or a good niche with an idea to settle in.
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<flip214>
Help, please. I'm trying to compile a user-supplied library; it's possible that functions refer to functions defined later on. Now I tried to handle undefined functions by capturing and verifying at the end whether all are bound.
<flip214>
https://paste.debian.net/hidden/80d16373/ is what I'm doing, basically. 1) SBCL gives a STYLE-WARNING but not UNDEFINED-FUNCTION; more important 2), compilation/LOADing is aborted at that point. COMPUTE-RESTARTS says (), none available.
<flip214>
I wouldn't want to muffle the warning - then I couldn't tell the user which functions haven't been provided...
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<flip214>
HANDLER-BIND instead of HANDLER-CASE solves that problem.
<flip214>
was additionally confused because swank adds another layer of handling that stuff
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<seok>
is there a graphics/2d game library that is maybe written on top of opengl to render images fast enough for fps ?
<rotateq>
I don't know for OpenGL right now, but as you ask for 2D there's lispbuilder-sdl.
<jackdaniel>
borodust: I'm only handling pointers :)
<borodust>
jackdaniel: yup, thank you, just suggestions
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<fitzsim>
how does the first WebAssembly 2.0 working draft look, from the perspective of Common Lisp implementers?
<beach>
Does it have non-local control transfer as phoe requested?
<rotateq>
From what jackdaniel said about the "new" multiple returns thing, I think again of Greenspun's 10th rule.
<Bike>
the website still lists exception handling as "in-progress"
<beach>
Ah.
<jackdaniel>
rotateq: multiple values were explicitly requested by a lisper so it is easier to port cl to that platform
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<rotateq>
jackdaniel: Oh that's great! So they're open to new ideas. :)
<jackdaniel>
afaik he was initially refused, but apparently the feature "got in"
<beach>
Do we know who that person is?
<jackdaniel>
Scieneer Common Lisp author, but I don't remember his name :)
<beach>
Thanks.
<jackdaniel>
Douglas Crosher I think
<Xach>
douglas "t" crosher
<rotateq>
So a really short nickname.
<Xach>
he has notes on lisp and wasm from 5-6 years ago, right? or maybe older?
* jackdaniel
doesn't know
<Xach>
Yes - in <56B2BA8A.3020408@scieneer.com> on sbcl-devel.
<Xach>
(a little over 6 years ago)
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<Nilby>
will sbcl's memory problems ever be fixed? or should i just give up?
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<jackdaniel>
do you mean sbcl dropping in ldb instead of signaling the storage exhausted condition?
<Nilby>
yes
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<Nilby>
if i have a normal size dynamic-space i keep irrecoverably crashing, if i have large, near or at phyical memory sized dynamic-space, memory gets filled up with uncollected garbage and everything is slower, and i can't have the many processes i need. oh an every other free lisp is too slow.
<jackdaniel>
I saw a few times a solution that the dynamic space was set to be "big enough" with a watchdog that invoked garbage collection at regular periods of time
<Nilby>
hmmm, that's an idea
<Nilby>
but still seems to creep up it's resident set
<jackdaniel>
ecl at start stashes aside enough memory to invoke the debugger and operate normally when the heap is exhausted (I know that ecl is to slow for you, just providing a reference)
<Nilby>
of course it also screws me over that i have a fancy bloated custom debuger
<Nilby>
i should probably have adjusted the debugger overhead long ago
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<Nilby>
at least ecl doesn't have such memory issues, and it seem to have been getting faster
<jackdaniel>
I need to land the fast generic function dispatch (it is working but requires cleanup)
<jackdaniel>
I have also a good idea for the type inferencer, so that should make also a considerable impact
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<Nilby>
hmmm. so if i write a native backend at least as fast as gcc, then we'll be set ;)
<Nilby>
somehow that seems easier than replacing sbcl's gc/allocater
<jackdaniel>
technically speaking ecl has a native backend that is precisely as fast as gcc, because it uses gcc to compile files :)
<jackdaniel>
s/it uses/it may use/
<jackdaniel>
also I have a lot of fun with having graphical applications on my phone powered by ecl
<Nilby>
i suppose it would have to have slower output, but faster throughput
<jackdaniel>
before the next release I'll run some benchmarks
<Nilby>
i used ecl build sbcl on my phone, but then sbcl hogs 30% of the memory
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<Nilby>
what graphics stack does it use on the phone ?
<jackdaniel>
I'm using EQL5-Android (ECL embedded in QT5), but I plan to switch to LQML by the same author
<Guest74>
all you need to export to png is zpng and a vector.
<seok>
oh
<seok>
it can take a vector ?
<seok>
how does it go around 255 color limit
<Guest74>
how to treat a vector as an image, well, there's Imago, opticl, etc...
<Guest74>
that's only a limit for a paletted png.
<seok>
any of those that can display the image too ?
<Guest74>
my stuff, but that's not published yet.
<seok>
sad
<seok>
are you making a game engine ?
<random-nick>
you can always run an image viewer on a file you outpu
<random-nick>
output, even
<Guest74>
mainly UI stuff. and maybe an old tile based game engine. Not going to do FHD on just the cpu.
<seok>
if there's a 2d game library which can handle keyboard and mouse inputs as well that's my sweetspot but I don't think theres easy one out there
<seok>
probably I can learn and use one of the sdl wrappers
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<jackdaniel>
seok: how about (with-output-to-drawing-stream (stream :raster "/tmp/foo.png") (draw-rectangle stream 10 10 100 100 :ink +red+)) ;?
<seok>
oh?
<jackdaniel>
McCLIM allows you to use drawing streams
<seok>
maybe if a game library that draws png can update that real time
<jackdaniel>
there are currently raster, pdf, postscript and svg backends
<seok>
how fast is mcclim though at drawing images ?
<Guest74>
I'm not sure why a game engine would write pngs though.
<seok>
well I want do draw pixel vectors
<jackdaniel>
it is fast enough to use is comfortably from repl
<seok>
or matrixes
<seok>
going through my options
<seok>
I think lispworks capi is similar to mcclim is it not ?
<seok>
I've been trying CAPI but I don't think I can achieve any framerate with it
<seok>
I made it draw out an array of pixels
<White_Flame>
yeah, SDL or some libs around that seem to make the most sense for you than GUI stuff
<jackdaniel>
writing png to read them back at runtime doesn't sound like a performant architecture
<seok>
ok
<White_Flame>
and of course opengl if you're going to sling tons of sprites
<Guest74>
writing pixel by pixel is also usually slower than copying regions.
<seok>
so I thought I'd have sprites defined by an array rather than a png image
<White_Flame>
so either hand-typed pixel art, or programmatically generated art?
<seok>
yeah exactly
<White_Flame>
shouldn't be a problem
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<White_Flame>
just have to figure out what the sdl or opengl bindings take for their textures
<seok>
hm I've never gone that low level before so I guess I'll have fun time learning
<White_Flame>
opengl is iirc very flexible in letting you define all sorts of bit depths etc based on what you want to give it. haven't used 2d sdl in a very long time though
<seok>
the CL wrapper for opengl is the one baggers wrote right ?
<White_Flame>
I'd check in #lispgames for the most recent recommendations (unless someone else pipes in here)
<Nilby>
clim runs, but is nearly impossible to use on the phone
<contrapunctus>
How do I check the current values of optimize properties?
<Guest74>
baggers wrote cepl
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<Guest74>
i think 3b? did cl-opengl
<jackdaniel>
Nilby: thanks for the info
<jackdaniel>
it's that touch gestures are too broad for it?
<Nilby>
i tried stuff from clim-examples:demodemo
<Nilby>
screen size too small, it doesn't react very well to events, it gets stuff like sheet-is-not-ancestor, presumably because the window manager is weird, etc
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<Nilby>
draw performance seems okay though, like the cube could spin
<Guest74>
I wonder what you can check to see you're on a phone and use an alternate layout/style?
<jackdaniel>
I see (/me starts writing a press release "McCLIM runs smooth on phones" ;)
<jackdaniel>
you may check dpi and screen dimensions to decide on the layout
<Nilby>
maybe i'll see if i can do a video
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<pfd>
This hunchentoot fan, Josh Betts, just started:
<Guest74>
lol, that's what I already do. Still befuddled. For some reason I was thinking of like when I'm on console and have to decide to provide a framebuffer surface.
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<Nilby>
most apps that are useable, have to be specificlly adapted to the layout and gestural way
<jackdaniel>
pfd: cool:)
<random-nick>
what backend runs on a phone? CLX with some kind of xorg app?
<Nilby>
i did port xscreensaver though
<Nilby>
mcclim -> clx -> xwayland
<Nilby>
on scbl
<jackdaniel>
pfd: do you have a website (preferably with rss)?
<Nilby>
sbcl arm65
<jackdaniel>
s/website/blog/
<Nilby>
4
<Guest74>
wait, you're running xwayland on your phone?
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<Nilby>
Guest74: yes
<Guest74>
apple/android? Where is this from? I haven't looked at phone stuff for years.
<pfd>
jackdaniel: No. I've only registered a URL for my future project(s) idea(s)..
<Nilby>
Guest74: just linux no apple/android
<Guest74>
ah.
<Nilby>
but ecl/qt can run under android at least
<Guest74>
yeah, I haven't gotten to the point of getting my stuff to work on that. So many things to fix first.
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<jackdaniel>
pfd: let me know when you do
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* |3b|
wrote the low-level binding generator for cl-opengl, and is the current maintainer. i think luis is the only of the original authors still on (lisp) irc these days?
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<luis>
I never got around to actually learning OpenGL, sadly
<luis>
wrote a tiny 3D pong game for a university assignment and that's it
<contrapunctus>
Strange...if I just add a `(declaim (ftype (function (<arg types>)) my-generic))` before a `defgeneric` , enter `(declaim (optimize (safety 3) (debug 3)))` at the REPL, load my file, then try to call a method with arguments of incorrect type, I don't get any warnings or errors 🤔️
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<Bike>
contrapunctus: declaim is just giving information to the compiler. it doesn't (necessarily) mean extra type checking code is put in.
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<mfiano>
Xach: When you get a chance, I desperately need your help (sent a query)
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<copec>
I wrote a basic software renderer in basic, in the early 90's, when I was in primary school, and always wanted to learn opengl/directx/vulkan
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<copec>
using basic trig to project the 3d shapes onto the screen
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<White_Flame>
copec: yeah, it quickly teaches you why clipping is necessary :-P
<copec>
brings up all sorts of fun problems
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<Shinmera>
Been thinking about organising a 'Trial game jam' for a week at some point where I'd be available for support throughout the week.
<Shinmera>
But then, I kinda doubt I could get enough people to actually participate for that to be a successful idea
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<aeth>
Shinmera: if your game engine ever becomes popular enough to get enough game jam participation, then someone else will probably organize the game jam before you ever get around to doing it, so you probably shouldn't worry about that
<Guest74>
seems like time for a spring lisp game jam anyways.