jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/> | News: ELS'22 this Monday (2022-03-21), see https://european-lisp-symposium.org
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<akoana> is '... aka (quote ...) something lisp did invent?
<akoana> I mean the notation not the concept...
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<mfiano> Yes
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<akoana> ah, thank you mfiano - it was a bit hard to google :)
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<mfiano> clhs quote
<akoana> yes, I know the hyperspec, but couldn't find something about its history/origin
<akoana> hyperspec entry*
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<mfiano> akoana: You can check the original Lisp paper presented by McCarthy in 1960 where it mentions the semantics of QUOTE. Though keep in mind, that version of Lisp used M-expressions, not S.
<mfiano> I can find a link if you can't find it.
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<akoana> ah, I downloaded it a few days before, yeah M-expressions...
<akoana> ah, that I didn't know thank you!
<akoana> hmm, gives me "Page Not Found"
<mfiano> Not for me
<akoana> weird
<mfiano> Make sure your web browser is not rewriting http to https
<mfiano> The https link is a page not found
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<akoana> ah, indeed the web browser rewriting it was the culprit, how stupid - thanks!
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<akoana> (had to use lynx, as I can't force firefox not to rewrite it, sigh)
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<yitzi> akoana: Just guessing, but quote was probably created as need by the eval function. McCarthy's History of Lisp mentions that that was due to S.R. Russell.
<akoana> interesting
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<akoana> Gabriel's and Steele's "The Evolution of Lisp" seems to talk about that
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<akoana> s/talk about that/mention it
<akoana> yitzi: Thank you
<yitzi> np
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<hashfunc1ebd> is this a big-endian representation of a 64 bit unsigned integer in bits? i'm not 100% sure if it is. https://pastebin.com/HZUUAjPW
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<hashfunc1ebd> ^that's all i could implement. but every big-endian explanation i've come across is confusing, so i'm not sure if what i implemented is 100% correct
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<semz> hashfunc1ebd: Big/little endian just mean that the digit representing the highest/lowest magnitude comes first respectively.
<semz> format outputs in big-endian by default since that's how humans write numbers, what you have is some kind of mixed thing
<semz> where the 8-bit blocks are arranged in little-endian but each block of 8 bits is in big endian
<hashfunc1ebd> so should the output instead be: 0000000100000011000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 ?
<hashfunc1ebd> like i said, i just really haven't understood any explanation on little/big endian. and throwing format into the mix definitely doesn't help clear things up either
<hashfunc1ebd> so is FORMAT, as used in the above-linked-code, not outputting what i think it's outputting? like i don't understand why you had to mention that
<hashfunc1ebd> unless it's crucial for understanding how little/big endianess works in the context of common lisp, then i greatly appreciate your feedback
<hashfunc1ebd> so this is big endian? CL-USER> (FORMAT t "~64,'0B" 259) => 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000100000011
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<hashfunc1ebd> if that's the case, then there's no need for bit twiddling
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<_death> when people refer to endianness, they usually refer to byte order.. so 259 as 64-bit in little endian, hexadecimal, shown as 8 octets, would be 03 01 00 00 00 00 00 00, while in big endian it would be 00 00 00 00 00 00 01 03 (which reads similar to 259 in hexadecimal, 103) .. format just shows you the number in binary, most significant bit (left) to least significant bit (right).. what you did was simply have format print
<_death> #x0301000000000000 in binary
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<beach> Good morning everyone!
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<patrix> good morning beach!
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<Andrew> Does anyone here use the lem text editor?
<spiaggia> Why do you ask?
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<Josh_2> Good morning
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<zacque> Hi, I've read through the ASDF manual, but I'm not sure which method to specialise on for a custom defined component class
<zacque> Hmmm, given a file, I want to process the file, then produce a new file that I actually want to load
<zacque> The path to the generated file is computed each time, and may vary from platform to platform
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<zacque> I can specialise my custom component class on `input-files`, `output-files`, and `perform`/`operate`. But which operation class to specialise on?
<beach> zacque: I don't know how to solve your problem, but you should be careful with terminology. Classes are not specialized; methods are. And the AMOP uses the preposition "to" for specialization, so that a method ON a generic function is specialized TO a class. I think it is a good idea to follow that convention.
<Nilby> zacque: you might have to customize all 3. cffi/grovel/asdf.lisp has an example that sounds similar
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<_death> beach: actually I used "specialize a method" the other day, and later on considered that I should've written "specialize a generic function".. because of your remark I just checked the clhs glossary, and indeed you specialize GFs by defining methods for them
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<beach> Yes, the MOP and the standard differ a bit.
<beach> The MOP also allows you to say that a method is specialized.
<beach> I don't think the MOP uses "specialize a method", but it does use "a method specialized to..."
<_death> that makes sense.. a method is specialized (differentiated from other methods) by having specializers
<beach> Yeah.
<beach> Let me see whether I can find an example...
<_death> but one may also say that a class is specialized in subclassing (in the sense of "genus and difference")
<beach> One may say that, but I have not seen that usage, neither in the Common Lisp standard nor in the AMOP.
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<beach> mop add-direct-method
<_death> perhaps, but I have an immediate feeling of it being "correct" usage
<beach> OK, so let's do this again... You can be "correct", but if your usage is disturbing to people, you may want to avoid it.
<beach> Since I have never seen "specialize" used this way in the standard or in the AMP book, I was confused by it. Of course, my opinion doesn't count here since I am not going to solve the problem anyway.
<beach> zacque: Forget what I said. Use whatever terminology you like.
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<jackdaniel> I did that thing with these jingles and the other thing went boom, any advice? ,)
<_death> clhs simple-string
<Nilby> zacque: as you might see, the cffi example specializes compile-op and load-source-op and makes it's own process-op a subclass of downward-operation. there's a lot of ops in asdf, but you'd probably only need a few. if you have a class browser, it might be useful to look at asdf:operation
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<_death> "specialized" in the sense of "specialized arrays" is similar to what I have in mind when encountering "specialize a class"
<_death> btw clhs 3.4.3 says "specialize a method" so that concurs with amop usage
<jackdaniel> I think that beach mentioned that clhs uses this terminology
<jackdaniel> no, forget what I've said :)
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<contrapunctus> I want to tweak `local-time:parse-timestring` to accept ISO-8601 timestamps with missing seconds, e.g. `"2021-04-25T00:00+Z"` , but...this is inscrutable 🤔️ https://github.com/dlowe-net/local-time/blob/master/src/local-time.lisp#L1469
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<flip214> contrapunctus: My approach would be extracting parts via CL-PPCRE... but you know the saying, I guess
<contrapunctus> flip214: the regex saying?
<flip214> yeah
<jackdaniel> Jamie Zawinski (I think) said: "I had a problem. I know (I thought), I'll use regular expressions. I had two problems."
<jackdaniel> or something in this spirit
<flip214> OTOH, you can "just" use POSITION to split on the "T" and the "+", and then use local-time on the two parts
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<flip214> contrapunctus: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/fc831719/ seems to work for me for your input
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<flip214> contrapunctus: or clone/fetch https://github.com/phmarek/local-time
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<zacque> beach: Thanks for your feedback. I don't mind learning the "correct" terminology to use if that helps with my communication =D
<beach> Sure.
<zacque> Or maybe we can agree on the usage of the terms to convey more accurate meanings
<zacque> I think the issue here is defining the relationship between generic function, method, and class?
<zacque> Oh, I think you have it: "a method ON a generic function is specialized TO a class"
<beach> I was not trying to start a discussion that would lead to an agreement. I was merely quoting sources that I consider as having some authority.
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<zacque> Nilby: Thanks! Indeed "cffi/grovel/asdf.lisp" is similar to what I want. I'll try to understand how the custom component class interacts with all the ops. Will take a look at asdf:operation as well =D
<zacque> beach: I see
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<Nilby> zacque: you're welcome
<Nilby> i wonder how many people use the asdf:monolithic-load-compiled-concatenated-source-op jingle. are fasls even guaranteed to be concat-able?
<zeroc00l0> beach: What do you mean by "authority"?
<jackdaniel> Nilby: I think that asdf does it the other way around
<jackdaniel> it concatenates source code and then compiles one fasl file
<Nilby> ah, that makes more sense
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<beach> zeroc00l0: People with lots more experience than I have, and in this case, who were involved in the creation of CLOS and the MOP.
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<zeroc00l0> Okay.
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<contrapunctus> flip214: well damn, I wasn't expecting someone to just write it :D Thanks. I'd request that you make a PR, but it has 3 PRs open already, one from 2016 :\ Is there any way to ask the sharplispers to take this up? I bet this library is kind of an important one 🤔️
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<NotThatRPG> contrapunctus: It looks like a PR was merged last year.
<NotThatRPG> but still, not so actively maintained.
<NotThatRPG> I wish GitHub had designed in a thoughtful approach to project transitions. To some extent I feel that projects should get archived after they are static for two years. That would make it less likely that dormant forks would hide active forks..
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<Shinmera> I have several projects that haven't seen patches in many years and don't need them.
<Shinmera> don't mean they're unmaintained.
<rotateq> And what's nice, people think when the last commit is from 10 years ago that is bad, but often such library was just *finished* and still runs exactly the same without a problem.
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<jackdaniel> minion: tell me about paip
<minion> jackdaniel: paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming. More about Common Lisp than Artificial Intelligence. Now freely available at https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp
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<Sankalp> looks like an interesting book. Thank you!
<jackdaniel> sure, I needed to be reminded of the link to it :)
<jackdaniel> it is indeed a very interesting book with wonderful case studies
<Sankalp> Awesome! I'll give it a read
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<rotateq> And a good introduction to the power of symbolic AI in my opinion. :)
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<Sankalp> Nice =)
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