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<dbotton>
how efficient are dynamic variables? I assume it is minimal like a pointer change?
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<mfiano>
Well it's a stack of bindings on the heap, so more than that.
<char[m]>
One factor is that the prevent tail call optimization when used in recursion
<mfiano>
Probably not noticable in any code you'll ever write, and their convenience far outweighs their cost.
<mfiano>
For example, you can patch a function without changing its public API.
<mfiano>
The answer to your question probably varies quite a bit in performance-wise, as it depends a lot on how they are implemented.
<char[m]>
Optional parameters with extra steps?
<mfiano>
Excuse me?
<char[m]>
Is that what you mean by patching a function?
<mfiano>
No, I mean a function can internally reference a special variable, and it can be bound around other internal functions that call it. That way, the user is none the wiser and their code continues to work without signature changes.
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<mfiano>
.
<mfiano>
Oops
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<dbotton>
thanks!
<dbotton>
mfiano I have found them incredibly useful
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<dbotton>
When I first learned them had no idea, figured something I'd never use
<mfiano>
Great. Very few languages have something like them. Schemes and Raku are the only ones I know about anyway.
<dbotton>
So far added caching, long polling etc all to CLOG in such elegant simple ways
<dbotton>
thanks to them
<mfiano>
Just be careful about multiple threads. While threads aren't specified in the standard, all sane implementations will make their bindings thread-local.
<dbotton>
I know counting on it :)
<mfiano>
Also the fact that their bindings are established at runtime (apart from any "root" binding), means it is more difficult to do things with their values at macro-expansion or compile-time.
<dbotton>
thanks for the tip
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<ldb>
good evening everyone
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<jackdaniel>
_death: thanks! re medium for a pixmap, I think that you could make the back-buffer variable escape from with-output-to-pixmap and that should work
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<jackdaniel>
but you would not be able to resize the pixmap then, so you need to decide on its size
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<lispy>
The second let always returns nil but I don't understand why
<beach>
Because LOOP returns NIL by default.
<lispy>
oh..
<lispy>
let me test
<beach>
If you want cum-list to be returned, stick that after LOOP, last in the LET form.
<lispy>
yeah I added a prog n and its working.. cool
<lispy>
quick question
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<beach>
No need for PROGN. LET has an implicit PROGN.
<lispy>
oh ok sec
<lispy>
I looked at all the forms for loop in the hyperspec but didn't find what I was looking for
<lispy>
is there something to make a loop apply some given function to an accumulator and each element of a list ?
<lispy>
I know I could write a function to do so, I am just asking if theres an implicit way I am missing
<zeroc00l0>
Like a `reduce` function?
<beach>
(loop with accumulator = ... for element in list do (function function accumulator element))
<lispy>
kind of but I want the function applied to my accimulator and each element in a list rather than just a given list
<beach>
Er, (funcall function...
<beach>
Sorry.
<lispy>
yep thats basically what I wrote in the code beach, so there is no implicit way to do so
<lispy>
unlucky, thanks
<beach>
Come on!
<beach>
How would that look?
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<lispy>
hmm smth like
<lispy>
loop for x in y applying (fn accimulator list)
<beach>
Let's include that in a revised standard.
<zeroc00l0>
What is the relationship between x, y and list? Sorry I don't understand it yet.
<lispy>
ah it smy mitsake
<lispy>
ah its my mistake**
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<lispy>
meant like this loop for x in y applying (fn accimulator x)
<lispy>
but that just seems like the do thing mentioned above
<beach>
lispy: How is your suggested clause more expressive than what I wrote?
<beach>
Exactly!
<lispy>
yeah, I guess it doesn't make much sense
<lispy>
oh well, my mistake then :)
<lispy>
thanks again though.
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
You are given a set of fantastic tools to combine smaller forms into larger ones, in arbitrary ways. Introducing large numbers of special cases would be contrary to that philosophy.
<zeroc00l0>
tbf, it's not always obvious to me how to combine the small things into the larger things that I want
<ecraven>
is there a way to not only displace an array but also access for example an underlying array of 8-bit unsigneds as if it were an array of 32-bit unsigneds, without copying?
<beach>
Not in the standard.
<pjb>
displacement must keep the same element-type.
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<semz>
Implementations might have this functionality. Worth keeping in mind that this operation is ill-defined without an endianness though.
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<semz>
could see SBCL or ECL have this
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<jackdaniel>
some pre-ansi lisps had such functionality
<jackdaniel>
clx can optionally use it with a feature #+clx-overlapping-arrays
<jackdaniel>
I'm more interested in conformal displacement though
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<lisp123>
I think async operations are needed for CL?
<lisp123>
for promises*
<scymtym>
lisp123: a promise can be implemented as a class or structure with slots for value, lock and condition variable. waiting for the promise is waiting on the condition variable, then reading the value slot. fulfilling the promise is taking the lock, writing the value slot, notifying the condition variable. the lparallel library has several variations of promises, for example one which fulfills the promise in a separate thread
<lisp123>
scymtym: Thanks!
<lisp123>
condition variable is from the lisp condition system?
<scymtym>
lisp123: no, a condition variable allows one thread to wait for a condition (in the general sense, not CL:CONDITION) such that a different thread can notify that the condition is fulfilled. BORDEAUX-THREADS:MAKE-CONDITION-VARIABLE is one way to make a condition variable
<ecraven>
so a conformally displaced array respects the stride between "lines"?
<lisp123>
scymtym: Thanks!
<lisp123>
That's really helpful that BT has such a feature
<lisp123>
jackdaniel: thanks
<jackdaniel>
ecraven: yes
<jackdaniel>
or between frames if you work on an array with three dimensions
<beach>
jackdaniel: Where did you find that terminology?
<jackdaniel>
"conformal displacement"?
<beach>
Yes.
<jackdaniel>
afaik genera had such extension for arrays
<beach>
I can imagine, but is that the term they used for it?
<jackdaniel>
I believe so, but I don't have a reference at hand
<beach>
OK, not a big deal.
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<jackdaniel>
and that's only one step from specifying projected arrays, and that could be used for tixelation ^_^ (I'm half joking)
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<beach>
It seems what you might want is an arbitrary function that translates between a list of indices to an offset.
<jackdaniel>
I have a strong suspiction that accounting for the array dimensions and the shape of the "slice" could be more performant than an arbitrary function
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<jackdaniel>
suspicion*
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<cross>
OA
<cross>
(Apologies; wrong window.)
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<mfiano>
Do SLIME/SLY special case the lambda list of #'MAKE-INSTANCE for the eldoc display, or why is it that other generic functions combine all &key arguments from all the methods?
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<Bike>
i believe make-instance is special cased, yeah
<mfiano>
I see.
<Bike>
figuring out the applicable methods for a generic function from only the source text is generally impossible. with make-instance it's more possible in certain cases
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<mfiano>
Thanks. I might be nitpicking here, but I'm considering changing my public-facing interface as I have lots of methods with differing keyword arguments and it makes it quite confusing without looking at the docs.
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<dieggsy>
I've definitely asked this before, but is there a special way to save a lisp image from within slime/sly?
<Xach>
dieggsy: I don't think there's a straightforward way. sly/slime introduce a lot of threads & connections that must be undone before saving.
<dieggsy>
currently when I try i get an image that doesn't actually have a repl prompt and kinda hangs
<Xach>
dieggsy: much simpler to load and start less and save from there.
<dieggsy>
Xach: start less?
<Xach>
dieggsy: yes. like, don't start the swank/slynk server.
<Xach>
don't start threads. don't open files. be minimialistic.
<dieggsy>
Oh, I see. I guess I can try to put my setup steps into a file and load that from the terminal
<dieggsy>
it's very inconvenient that our main tool complicates this though, since i'd expect most people start work in slime, then if you get the idea to save an image you have to redo what you did
<Xach>
dieggsy: I guess I'm so accustomed to the limitation that it just seems intuitive to me. I agree that it would be nice if it weren't limited that way, but I don't see an easy way out.
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<Xach>
Because I'm used to it, I arrange things so they can be easily loaded and turned into an image from the CLI.
<Xach>
dieggsy: the other complication is the "and die" part of "save lisp and die"
<Xach>
usually if you're working interactively you want to keep working interactively
<dieggsy>
Xach: allegro has a way of saving an image without dying
<Xach>
dieggsy: what is it called?
<dieggsy>
though i do use SBCL for my personal projects so you're right there
<dieggsy>
mfiano: oh yeah, i forgot the small detail that we're living in the stone ages at work and running the version of allegro without multiprocessing
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<dieggsy>
although, i would still thing that behavior is preferrable over dying?
<dieggsy>
maybe not, i suppose i haven't had the reason to test in a program where that would apply
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<etimmons>
If you could get your SBCL image down to a single thread you could presumably (sb-posix:fork) and then save-lisp-and-die in the child.
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<lispy>
that looks much nicer but ive never seen this formatting anywhere else, like using :for and :in
<rotateq>
lispy: It's useful for syntax highlighting too. :)
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<pjb>
lispy: yes, using keywords for loop key words is nice for the font-locking, but also, to avoid name collisions. Eg I have a package exporting a macro named WHILE. If I write a (loop while nil) and then try to use that package, that gives a collision to be resolved. If I write (loop :while nil) I don't have this problem.
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<ldb>
I think it is also possible to use #:for and #:in?
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<rotateq>
ldb: Oh never tried, but some weeks was brave enough (loop :for for :in in :while while :sum sum) with a LET and a SYMBOL-MACROLET form.
<Bike>
it is. the macro only pays attention to symbol names
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<rotateq>
okay nice
<pjstirling123>
Personally, I always use #: for loop keywords
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<rotateq>
pjstirling123: okay then that's something I didn't see in the wild yet :)
<mfiano>
Me neither, and while I don't like the extra character, it seems like a good use for uninterned symbols, if you are the type that doesn't like to intern the world under :KEYWORD
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<mfiano>
Another plus (or minus?): Scheme people would be more accustomed to your code.
<NotThatRPG>
Typing the loop keywords in the keyword package is something that Fare did in ASDF, and I have picked it up. Since the layout of LOOP can be obscure (coders put "DO" in the oddest places!) it can help the reader by making the keywords stand out and giving a skeleton to a loop.
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<rotateq>
NotThatRPG: Oh you mean DO at the end of a line?
<NotThatRPG>
rotateq: Yeah, that makes me bonkers.
<mfiano>
Yes it has a few benefits, that being one. Another I can think of, is it helps with your completion system, as to not list needless candidates interned into your package.
<rotateq>
As we're not in C land. (okay they have no explicit do for a for-loop)
<rotateq>
Better Algol? Does it have DO?
<jackdaniel>
(loop (do () (t :spanish-inquisition)))
<jackdaniel>
nobody expected that do
<rotateq>
I adapted the keyword syntax from a baggers video the first time.
<jackdaniel>
in that place ,)
<rotateq>
jackdaniel: Nobody expects the spanish inquisition!
<rotateq>
"Our weapons are parentheses, macros and ..."
<jackdaniel>
lack of humour
<rotateq>
oh right
<rotateq>
jackdaniel: so bad? :(
<jackdaniel>
no, I've meant that the lack of humour is the third weapon - I was making a stab at the channel participants ,)
<rotateq>
But my CLIMzüge joke in #clim some days ago worked out well for other German readers.
<rotateq>
haha okay
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<NotThatRPG>
rotateq: I just try to use the iterate macro now. I used to be a big fan of LOOP, but its conditionals are such a horror.
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<rotateq>
NotThatRPG: Yes, but I think with an extensible LOOP in SICL it gets better. Didn't use iterate yet.
<rotateq>
And as LOOP is in the ANSI standard ...
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<jackdaniel>
LOOP as it is in the ansi standard is not extensible
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<jackdaniel>
it is not that MIT loop is not extensible, it is that the mechanism for extending it is not part of the standard
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<jackdaniel>
and the same non-extensibility property applies to any loop implementation out there
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<jackdaniel>
(that said I don't think that any implementation shipping MIT LOOP actually advertises that it may be extended)
<rotateq>
I have to reread the section in PAIP where Norvig shows how to implement a subset or better, how to do it modularly and combining those. Or reading the SICL module code.
<gjvc>
rotateq: baggers' videos are great!
<jackdaniel>
I think that the main selling point of SICL module code is that it is easier to maintain because it uses more contemprary techniques (like CLOS)
<rotateq>
gjvc: Indeed, the short ones and from his long about CFFI I learned first things last year how to work with it.
<rotateq>
jackdaniel: Yes and for that needing LOOP before. :)
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<Guest74>
jackdaniel: I've been thinking the same performance wise for conformal arrays, though haven't been able to test it.
<Guest74>
I currently use an index function in general to access 1d arrays as if they were 2d, so adding stride wasn't a big step.
<rotateq>
so vectors to matrices? or reshaping to 1×n ?
<Guest74>
the index function is faster than normal multidimensional array accessing.
<rotateq>
ahh now I know what you mean. yes, but that depends again on the implementation's strategy I would say
<Guest74>
1d arrays being access like 2d
<Guest74>
the downside is you don't actually get an array you can pass around.
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<Guest74>
it just seems it would be faster if the impl was doing the indexing and presenting.
<rotateq>
and you brought me now to the question how i can access the storage vector of a #0A and tried (aref *arr*) for logic consistency reasons and works
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<rotateq>
But yes, in a good four part series on youtube where someone shows how to write a simple raytracer in CL he argues using vectors too for efficiency reasons.
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<Guest74>
It seems everybody and their wife has a ray tracer. I wonder why we don't have a nice production one.
<rotateq>
we can have, especially now that there are new techniques for fast dispatch or projects like petalisp with OpenGL backend and the April compiler
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<mfiano>
_death: What are you hmming about?
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<_death>
thinking about whether it (trace output with presentations for args/retvals) is worth pursuing further..
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<Xach>
_death: i use sly trace for that sometimes.
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<Xach>
_death: i'm working with values that get and do get mutated, though, and that has masked some issues when reviewing later...
<mfiano>
I tend to use Sly stickers
<_death>
slime has a "trace dialog" by the author of sly.. is that similar?
<Xach>
I don't know, I didn't ever use it in slime. Only in sly. Yes, it's a dialog and not part of repl output.
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<Xach>
The upside is it gives you inspectable traces, the downside (for me) is the mutation problem: what you see isn't necessarily isn't what you got when the trace was collected. And that's important in my application.
<Xach>
Dead text tells no lies
<_death>
right
<mfiano>
Xach: Have you tried stickers for stepping through recordings of forms?
<Xach>
mfiano: Not in a long while. ISTR it also has the mutation issue?
<Xach>
I'd like to make stickers part of my workflow, but it hasn't stuck in two or three attempts.
<mfiano>
Oh hmm. That is the main selling point of Sly to me.
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<_death>
for a few calls trace with :break option will do, I suppose
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