klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<Ermine> Do they produce any software? Haven't heard of any
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<Ermine> Do they host any computer-science related journals? Yes, and probably some of them are high-tier
<Ermine> probably they give grants, scholarships and shit
<dostoyevsky2> I feel during the time when ACM gave Knuth the Turing Award it was actually a contemporary figure in Computer Science... But today's laureates seem ancient... 2020 Aho and Ullman got the Turing Award, 34 years after releasing their Compiler Books... ACM seems stale to me... Mathematicians can usually get their Fields Medals in a couple of years after publishing their work
<Ermine> Seems like usual thing. Nobel prizes can be awarded for something invented a lot of time ago as well
<Ermine> Anyway, was going to say that grants are important when your university salary is laughable
<dostoyevsky2> Ermine: I wonder if descriptions of Nobel Prizes a year's winners also contain the phrase ", which was popular at the time"
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<heat> Ermine, i'm gonna guess that microkernel papers in 2024 are like beating a dead horse
<dostoyevsky2> Ermine: I think for science in general it can take a long time to figure out if something moves science forward, it just take a long time to verify stuff. In computer science it's much more obvious. People don't need 50 years to figure out if Linux was a good idea and whether Linus should get a Turing Award
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<dostoyevsky2> And the only reason ACM seems to be that way is that it's a bunch of old guys living in the past giving prizes to stuff they liked when they were younger, so it seems irrelevant
<zid> nobel prizes are *usually* contemporary
<zid> Because they're not awarded posthumously
<zid> so either they award them soon, or they can't ever
<heat> all awards are irrelevant but it'd be nice to award them correctly
<heat> they awarded LLVM before awarding GCC
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<heat> "for developing a software system that has had a lasting influence, reflected in contributions to concepts, in commercial acceptance, or both"
<Ermine> idk what's treny in CS papers
<Ermine> but I'd not be surprised if microkernel papers still get published
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<heat> MIT has been into weird variations of UNIX
<Ermine> xv6 xv6 xv6
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<bslsk05> ​arxiv.org: [2210.04328] seL4 Microkernel for virtualization use-cases: Potential directions towards a standard VMM
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<nikolar> heat: lol seriously
<nikolar> didn't gcc do that for decades before llvm even existed
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<heat> yes
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<geist> MICROKERNEL
<geist> heat: microkernel
<geist> µkernal
<heat> *MICROKERNAL
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<mjg> fucking PESSIMAL
<nikolapdp> what is it this time
<mjg> linux rwsem
<nikolapdp> kek
<mjg> i submitted a patch which speeds something up
<mjg> and of course it resulted in a slowdown in a funky ubench
<mjg> funky ubench makes heavy use of rwsems
<mjg> and thanks to the speed up now sees more traffic
<mjg> this is where PESSIMAL comes into play
<nikolapdp> PESSIMAL
<mjg> it tries to do an adaptive spin
<mjg> however, if it needs to rsched, it goes off cpu and NEVER tries again
<mjg> but since the code now executes more often, there is more going off cpu and not trying to spin
<mjg> meaning there is more of queueing yourself as a blocked aiter on the lock
<mjg> so it goes to sleep twice
<mjg> and makes it more expensive to unlock
<mjg> fucking 0/10 who wrote that
<nikolapdp> send PATCHEN then
<mjg> i'll
<mjg> just sayin
<mjg> freebsd doesn ot have *this* problem :P
<mjg> (it has others)
<nikolapdp> heh
<mjg> erm, that's MUTEXEN
<mjg> rwsem has other shittery
<Ermine> mjg: that's linux engineering ethos
<mjg> word
<mjg> albeit this kind of a problem is more the solaris way
<mjg> now that i wrote the above
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<nikolapdp> heh pdp-1
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<heat> mjg, onyx would not have that problem, just sayin
<heat> i didnt really get what problem it was, but onyx just doesn't have it, period
<nikolapdp> onyx never has problems
<Ermine> you're goddamn right nikolapdp
<heat> 📠
<Ermine> what is this emoji
<heat> fax
<nikolapdp> looks like a building to me
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<mjg> onyx is the greatest MON
<Ermine> onyx is the apex of osdeving
<mjg> apex legend of systems
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<heat> here's an awful fact
<heat> linux 2.2: wc -l mm/*.c 9166 total
<heat> linux 6.1.39: wc -l mm/*.c 159531 total
<mjg> what's so awful here mon
<mjg> oh
<mjg> :d
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<nikolapdp> ...
<mjg> maybe it's all the code comments
<mjg> :F
<heat> linux 2.2 is actually an adorable little kernel that's kind of good learning-wise
<mjg> :D
<mjg> get some taste mon
<heat> still a big fan of lock_kernel but, y'know, good otherwise
<mjg> oh right, c++
<mjg> carry on
<heat> what would your taste be?
<heat> 4.3BSD?
<mjg> none of the kernel are good mate
<mjg> 's all shite except for select parts of some of them
<heat> hmmm idk about that onyx is pretty damn good
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<mjg> did not you concede it fucken is not
<heat> huh?
<mjg> for example it does not sruvive file creation
<heat> oh im sorry my hobby OS doesn't survive your prod workload yet
<heat> sub to my onlyfans and we can make that happen very quickly
<mjg> what would be a good hobby os then
<mjg> gets to multisuer?
<heat> that's already largely a success in the hobby side
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<mjg> well ofc
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<mjg> but if you were to recommend something for learning purposes
<mjg> it's not good enough criterion innit
<heat> onyx
<nikolapdp> the perfetc os is 2.11BSD
<mjg> you motherfuckers want me throwing shade
<mjg> so here it is
<heat> netbsduser's thing is also quite good, very classically written
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<mjg> i watched part of the lecture about "scheduling in freebsd"
<mjg> and it's bad man
<zid> if 2.11 BSD is so good, why is there no 3.11 bsd for workgroups
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<zid> checkmate
<mjg> code which is known to not work since 2008 is presented as a great idea
<nikolapdp> yeah you just need to fix it to work :P
<mjg> liek for real, very serious problems
<heat> you like missing the idea of "learning purposes"
<mjg> so for "learning purposes" mofo
<mjg> the code would be neatly organized
<mjg> have a lot of comments
<mjg> sensible code 'n shit
<mjg> people can reach multisuer and not fit any of those
<mjg> is that something you can agree with
<heat> correct
<mjg> so onyx is not automatically a good resouce
<mjg> for reaching userspace
<heat> i didn't pick onyx or nbsduser's thing because of reaching userspace
<heat> there are a good bunch of hobby kernels out there that have more impressing systems built on top
<mjg> 15:19 < heat> oh im sorry my hobby OS doesn't survive your prod workload yet
<mjg> 15:20 < heat> sub to my onlyfans and we can make that happen very quickly
<mjg> 15:20 < mjg> gets to multisuer?
<mjg> 15:20 < mjg> what would be a good hobby os then
<mjg> 15:20 < heat> that's already largely a success in the hobby side
<heat> i just gave you a metric for a good "hobby os"
<mjg> what is that metric, spell it out mon
<heat> ... does things
<mjg> well, no
<mjg> openbsd does things
<mjg> i would not learn from that
<heat> openbsd is not a hobby os and a hobby os is not a learning resource automatically god damn you
<mjg> lol
<mjg> strip it to hobby
<mjg> codebase is shite
<mjg> and i am not even talking the inherited vaxl egacy
<mjg> but they stuff they are adding there
<heat> here's why i think onyx would be a good resource: it's technically sound, usually compreehensible and is performance-competitive in many metrics with production systems
<heat> on the cons: it's a little too large and sometimes i'm a little sloppy
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<mjg> bpftrace
<mjg> stdin:1:37-81: ERROR: Type mismatch for '!=': comparing 'atomic64_t' with 'int64'
<mjg> kprobe:custom_rwsem_spin_on_owner { @[((struct rw_semaphore *)arg0)->owner != 0] = count(); }
<mjg> stdin:1:80-92: ERROR: Cannot cast to struct type "atomic64_t"
<mjg> kprobe:custom_rwsem_spin_on_owner { @[((struct rw_semaphore *)arg0)->owner != (atomic64_t)0] = count(); }
<mjg> stdin:1:37-46: ERROR: Cannot cast from struct type "atomic64_t"
<mjg> kprobe:custom_rwsem_spin_on_owner { @[(int64)((struct rw_semaphore *)arg0)->owner != 0] = count(); }
<mjg> wtf is one supposed to do here
<mjg> lmao
<heat> atomic64_t{0}.counter?
<heat> or similar, just make sure to get the .counter
<heat> idk if there's a better way to do this, but this should work i think
<mjg> ye i did that, but ffs
<mjg> dtrace is files ahead in usability department
<mjg> miles even
<heat> dtrace is also a lot older
<nikolapdp> files ahead
<mjg> heat: dtrace reached better maturity in shorter timeframe
<mjg> note it barely changed after it got released in 2005 or so
<heat> files ahead haha everything is a file innit
<mjg> UNIX
<nikolapdp> indeed
<mjg> arschlochen
<heat> mjg, mon say i have a pcpu counter scheme. how expensive are reads going to be?
<heat> pcpu counter scheme meaning a naive 'unsigned long stat[NR_CPUS]; stat[get_cpu_nr]++;'
<mjg> ? :D
<mjg> that's your idea of a scheme
<mjg> no padding?
<mjg> or other distribution
<mjg> cause this here defeats the point
<heat> that's irrelevant here
<heat> i just want to know how much slower the reads are
<mjg> it's literally the fucking point mofer
<mjg> if you mean the actual counters which make sense to implement
<mjg> where you have to walk cpu-private lines
<heat> yes
<mjg> is expensive once you get past laptop scale
<mjg> if reads are frequent chances are a per-cpu counter is the bad choice
<mjg> you may want less granualrity
<mjg> but to put things into perspective, if you are counting events which happen millions of times per second
<mjg> and you read once per second
<mjg> make it per-cpu proper
<heat> yeah was just randomly thinking that if i want to go the balance_dirty_pages route i want an atomic counter for dirty pages
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<mjg> you know what's funny
<mjg> linux doing 2 trips around all cpus on fork
<mjg> ... and exec
<nikolapdp> for the rcu?
<mjg> no
<mjg> for aself-induce per-cpu counter problem
<mjg> self-induced
<mjg> rss stats 'n shit
<mjg> it used to be 5 rounds, but i batched them
<mjg> i have a wip patch to make it 1
<mjg> :d
<nikolapdp> heh
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<zid> nikolapdp disregard rcus, acquire learning to read
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<zid> I recommend reading lots of books, so you cna learn lots of nice new words
<nikolapdp> lock(); read(); unlock();
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<Ermine> Does Intel SDM contain microarchitectural stuff, like rep movsb backwards being slow or something like that
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<Mutabah> I don't think so
<Mutabah> but I recall an optimisation guide somewhere?
<GeDaMo> The optimization manual mentions microarchitectural differences
<Ermine> thank you!
<bslsk05> ​www.intel.com: Access Denied
<GeDaMo> There's also Agner Fog's resources https://www.agner.org/optimize/
<bslsk05> ​www.agner.org: Software optimization resources. C++ and assembly. Windows, Linux, BSD, Mac OS X
<mjg> it's super dated tho
<mjg> unless he updated it in recent years
<mjg> for one it does not even mention erms
<mjg> :d
<mjg> it's still a great general overview tho
<GeDaMo> "last modified: 2024-May-28"
<GeDaMo> Not sure if that means updated
<mjg> no mention of erms
<mjg> (13 or so years old now)
<mjg> but talks about pentium 4
<mjg> so you tell me
<nikolapdp> erms?
<mjg> :[
<nikolapdp> ah ehanced rep mov
<nikolapdp> thanks mjg, helpful
<mjg> my welcome
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<mjg> this has been ranted about so much here
<mjg> next you are going to ask me what's solaris
<mjg> X:
<nikolapdp> well i am sorry i can't remember all 4 letters abbreviations all the time :P
<mjg> ONYX you do remember don't you
<nikolapdp> if it's an abbreviation, then no
<mjg> it's misspelled "crap"
<mjg> heat is a little dyslexic
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<nikolapdp> ah makes sense
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<GeDaMo> If you increase each letter by one, ONYX becomes POZY :|
<heat> pozy scheme
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<Ermine> mjg: meanie
<mjg> i used to develop freebsd, which was misspeled "shiteOS"
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<heat> haha 2.2 had binfmt_java for native java exec support
<nikolapdp> wat
<nikolapdp> where
<heat> in the kernel
<nikolapdp> oh you mean 2.2 version
<nikolapdp> heh silly
<heat> yes
<heat> basically they recognized .class and ran /usr/bin/java <.class file> a-la #!
<nikolapdp> nice
<nikolapdp> didn't know binfmt looked at the extension
<nikolapdp> thouhgt it poked at magic values in the binary
<heat> it did not, it looked at the magic bytes
<heat> but it totally can, at least in C code
<nikolapdp> what do you mean
<heat> the internal binfmt code has access to the dentry, therefore can look at the filename or even path if it so desires
<nikolapdp> ah interesting
<nikolapdp> that's not exposed to the custom binfmt though, is it
<heat> dunno
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<zid> nikolar: If I install bsd 2.11 what options do I need so I can run terraria?
<nikolapdp> you'd need to find a gpu that works with a pdp-11 :P
<zid> what busses does it have
<zid> maybe we can add some controllers in the middle
<zid> pci-e -> 115200 baud serial is doable
<bslsk05> ​www.tomshardware.com: Minisforum DEG1 eGPU dock launched at $99 — open-air device supports up to RTX 4090 and OCuLink connections | Tom's Hardware
<nikolapdp> yeah sounds fine
<nikolapdp> an egpu dock that doesn't cost a kindey to buy?
<nikolapdp> wow
<zid> kindery
<nikolapdp> kek
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<zid> In o ther news, it's 6C cooler today and I am very comfortable
<dostoyevsky2> > void write_char(char c, uint16_t offset) { ((char)0xB8000 + offset) = c; }
<zid> 10/10
<dostoyevsky2> what kind of video mode is that where you can just write to 0xB8000?
<zid> all of them
<GeDaMo> I feel like you're missing an * from that
<zid> yea I thought it was a joke at first
<dostoyevsky2> yeah
<zid> it's also wrong after that too
<bslsk05> ​old.reddit.com: Blocked
<zid> glyphs are two bytes
<zid> Okay that makes sense, there's more code
<zid> which means the * got turned into bold/italic hilighting
<GeDaMo> Why programmer no know markdown? :|
<zid> but anyway, that's just how CGA/EGA/VGA/etc do text
<zid> A0000 is the framebuffer, B8000 is the text console memory
<heat> text mode vga
<gog> hi
<zid> (0xB8000 + y*80*2 + 0) and (0xB8000 + y*80*2 + 1) are the cp-437 character, and the attribute byte for each glyph
<dostoyevsky2> GeDaMo: yeah, maybe it was *char but because of the * markdown made the char italic
<zid> (in some order, I forget)
<gog> struct {unsigned char attribute, unsigned char glyph}
<GeDaMo> dostoyevsky2: more likely (char *)
<gog> i think the glyph is the low byte
<gog> high byte?
<gog> idk
<zid> not according to your struct :p
<gog> yeah i saw :P
<zid> *vmem++ = 0xF00 | c;
<gog> anyhow, use structs. structs are cool and good
<zzo38> I have used PC text mode, and I think the first byte of each cell is the character code, and then the colour is the next one
<zid> little endian cpu so first byte is glyph
<gog> ah ok then
<gog> i don't know about computer
<GeDaMo> computer just thinking stone :|
<gog> :|
<zid> stone is a weird word
<bslsk05> ​grugbrain.dev: The Grug Brained Developer
<gog> stein
<zid> It's an example of a thing in its class, but also its class. By which I mean, it's made out of stone and is a stone.
<gog> i'm grug brained
<zid> I am eating noods
<dostoyevsky2> GeDaMo: So I followed the link to the github repo and tried to find the code there, searching for 0xB800. whilst there is some code, the code from the post isn't there
<GeDaMo> :/
<zid> hah
<dostoyevsky2> Also, `?' as the git comment: https://github.com/pizzuhh/playing-around-with-osdev/commits/main/
<bslsk05> ​github.com: Commits · pizzuhh/playing-around-with-osdev · GitHub
<gog> single character commit messages rule
<zid> v h qual dev
<gog> my boss sometimes does weird commit messages because he's being sneaky and commiting directly to master
<gog> and from time to time he ruins my day because one of his little fixes breaks something i was doing
<zid> force push over him
<gog> i can't i don't have perms
<gog> i can only merge PRs
<zid> boo
<gog> he asked if i wanted master commit rights and i was like no not at all that is a footgun and i like to pull triggerss
<gog> just to see
<zid> "Are you asking because you trust me, or because you want to watch the world burn? tbh both are probably a bad idea"
<gog> yes
<gog> he should not trust me and i have demonstrated this repeatedly
<heat> hey gog give me rights to force push to master thanks
<gog> ok here you go
<zid> my noods are too hot
<gog> i'm having sosig
<gog> with sauerkraut and potate
<zid> bet you are
<gog> hhhhhhhh
<zid> gross
<zid> battery acid slop
<gog> tomorrow i'm gonna have a pork bibmbap for lunch
<gog> it's loaded with kimchi
<zid> have you considered loading it with food
<gog> no
<gog> not even for a moment
<zid> consider for future
<gog> whatever nerd
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<nikolapdp> EDITED m
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* Ermine us PESSIMAL brained
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* Ermine gives gog a piece of cheese
<mjg> rules are for other people to follow
<mjg> every asshole ever ^^
<nikolapdp> wat
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<zid> nikolapdp: how do I install bsd 2.11
<bslsk05> ​bsdimp.blogspot.com: Warner's Random Hacking Blog: SIMH Setup for 2.11BSD restoration project
<nikolapdp> you're welcome
<zid> simh?
<zid> oh I didn't wanna install it on a pdp
<zid> does it only run on pretend computers
<nikolapdp> how's a pdp a pretend computer
<zid> how's it a real one
<nikolapdp> it computes?
<zid> does apple sell them? does microsoft?
<zid> fake computer
<nikolapdp> mircosoft didn't sell me a pc or a laptop
<zid> third party clone?
<nikolapdp> sure
<zid> Mine is like, a really advanced knockoff PC
<zid> it doesn't even have a ps/2 port though so it might not be a PC
<nikolapdp> mine doesn't either
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