klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<cloudowind> goodays/nights everyone
<cloudowind> geist: this chatgpt knows you
<cloudowind> 10:26 < cloudowind> timer: do you know who has written newos?
<cloudowind> 10:26 < timer> The NewOS operating system was primarily developed by a programmer named Travis Geiselbrecht. He started the project in the late 1990s and continued its development for several years. NewOS served as an experimental platform and was influential in the development of other operating systems, including the kernel of the Haiku operating system.
<cloudowind> repsects to everyone , will see you later geist
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<geist> yo
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<nikolapdp> isn't vtune a profiler that can tell you various low level (like individual cpu component) utilization
<nikolapdp> like cache or various execution units etc
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<mjg> it tells you a lot
<mjg> with tons of hints what the problem is
<nikolapdp> yeah but very low level
<mjg> what do you think 'perf' says
<mjg> :d
<mjg> the same, except worse
<mjg> (as in also low level, but much drastically less info and even then you have to fuck with specifying counters by hand)
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<vai> yo
<nikolapdp> oi
<zid> no
<nikolapdp> what
<zid> no nikolar allowed
<vai> coffee or die
<vai> I have big chances ;)
<nikolapdp> i am no nikolar
<zid> nobody beginning with n
<nikolapdp> ):
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<netbsduser> i am pushing new bounds in scalability and the sun engineering ethos
<netbsduser> just started implementing solaris style event ports
<nikolar> neat
<mjg> these 2 are incompatible goals man
<mjg> the cornerstone of sun engineering ethos is to not scale
<Ermine> my kernal will have a lot of sun/bsd engineering ethos
<GeDaMo> Are you looking to get bought by Oracle? :|
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<Ermine> No
<Ermine> I'd better get bought by microsoft
<zid> surpass oracle
<zid> become the sun
<zid> don't let your dreams be dreams
<nikolapdp> SUN
<zid> marry solaire
<Ermine> MOON
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<GeDaMo> Do Microsoft not already have an OS? Better get bought by somebody else :P
<nikolapdp> MOON MEGASYSTEMS vs SUN MICROSYSTEMS
<mjg> elon musk should write a software cmpany to write an OS
<nikolapdp> write a company?
<GeDaMo> X OS, I'd assume
<mjg> buy
<mjg> i can see it running on half of devices in the world
<mjg> could be running the client side X app
<mjg> for payments
<Ermine> I don't think microsoft will mind having another os
<mjg> they already have linukkz
<zid> Them buying it so they can kill the absurdly powerful threat to their business
<zid> still counts
<Ermine> Though all their OSen other that Windows and Linux are research ones
<mjg> they should adopt a bsd
<mjg> i found an abandoned "research kernel" which talked shit about scalability
<GeDaMo> Do Meta have their own OS?
<mjg> it had locking primitives taken from bsd
<mjg> :d
<nikolapdp> which one is that ,jg
<nikolapdp> mjg
<mjg> i don't remember the name, was quite some time
<mjg> it was offensive in the usual manner
<kof673> "they should adopt a bsd" > Eventually, Unix ran away from home. Soon it was living on the streets of Berkeley. There, Unix got involved with a bad crowd.
<Ermine> XENIX
<Ermine> mjg: did you check xenix scalability?
<mjg> xenix? did it even smp?
<vai> I just want an OS I use. Thats why I am making one.
<mjg> :p
<mjg> i wonder how many people use their own os as their daily driver
<vai> if I use it, others will follow
<mjg> with maybe at most handful other contributors
<Ermine> id re xenix
<Ermine> idk
<mjg> i was told about one crazy man supposedly doing it
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<geist> Xenix
<mjg> xenix?
<kazinsal> xenix!
<bslsk05> ​hackaday.com: Z80 Fuzix Is Like Old Fashioned Unix | Hackaday
<heat> xenix.
<geist> xenix!
<mjg> FUZIX MOTHERFUCKER
<heat> fuzix is alan cox's thing
<heat> the linux alan cox
<mjg> :O
<geist> dang i’m going blank, there was a little multi tasking posixy thing for apple 2 i remember seeing somewhere
<mjg> shieet
<geist> it had a cute name iirc
<kazinsal> yeah I remember seeing something similar for c64
<kazinsal> took like, five minutes to load off a tape of course
<GeDaMo> Something like Geos?
<mjg> 5 minutes is nothing
<mjg> games would take longer
<geist> without any sort of hardware assist it’s a bit difficult, but something like tandy coco 3 is perfect for it
<geist> since it has a nice banking feature that scales up to like a megabyte
<geist> hence why that 6809 kernel shows up all over the place
<geist> which i’m also going blank on
<geist> iirc the coco 3 has like 4 banks of 16k across the 64k address space, and any bank can point to one of 16 or whatnot banks of up to 1MB. or something like that
<geist> basically just 4 4 bit latches, but very flexible
<geist> i probablyhave the numbers wrong, but the idea is the same
<heat> 2.11BSD for apple 2
<bslsk05> ​rich12345.tripod.com: 8 bit Program switcher
<heat> would probably be a little annoying as the arch indepenence wasn't really a thing back then
<GeDaMo> "This program allows you to configure a 128k apple II or a Ramworks RAM card to do the following: * run multiple apple II's on the same machine"
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<Ermine> does 2.11bsd for apple 2 exist?
<heat> no
<Ermine> ok
<heat> i mean geist knows something similar
<Ermine> there is an apple 2 emulator for wii
<nikolapdp> DID SOMEONE MENTION BSD 2.11
<heat> it's 2.11BSD not BSD 2.11
<heat> why? LSD
<GeDaMo> BLeSseD
<Ermine> ... which is created in the same place as bsd. Coincidence?
<heat> lerkeley software distribution
<Ermine> berkeley acid diethylamide
<zid> bsd = bioxyribosucleaic dacid
<nikolapdp> BSD
<nortti> geist: is this the one you're thinking of? https://github.com/A2osX/A2osX
<bslsk05> ​A2osX/A2osX - Multi Tasking OS for Apple IIe //c IIgs (18 forks/178 stargazers/NOASSERTION)
<geist> Much older than that but that looks neat
<geist> Think it was called elk
<geist> Can't check now on a bus
<Ermine> bus factor = 1
<zid> bus factor of being serbian here is also 1
<zid> so we either need a bus to reduce it to 0, or more serbians
<geist> Bus to beelzebub
<zid> I vote the former
<bslsk05> ​www.theregister.com: The 30-year-old prank that became the first computer virus • The Register
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<nortti> geist: are you sure you're not thinking of elks, the linux fork for 8086?
<zid> You mean elks, the large deer
<geist> Maybe but I do remember this apple thing
<geist> Like back in the day when apple 2 was current
<geist> Otoh it could have been just a programming environment
<geist> Which is common
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<GeDaMo> Did it have a GUI?
<nortti> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeckOS TIL this exists
<geist> Heh no
<zid> can geckos run gecko
<zid> (the html layout engine thing)
<nortti> I would be very suprised if it could
<GeDaMo> «Mimicking Commodore's own OS core naming, Berkeley called GEOS' core a "kernal"» https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEOS_(8-bit_operating_system)
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<heat> linux fucken kernal
<mjg> what are you unhappy aobut heat
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<mjg> linux is great
<heat> i'm not unhappy i would never be unhappy about our lord and saviour linux kernal
<mjg> you ok heat
<nikolapdp> heat's never ok
<heat> yeah im fine
<heat> dragonflybsd is now officially the only bsd with a sensible rmap interface
<heat> s/interface/implementation/
<mjg> ? :O
<heat> they do it object based, instead of the weird stuff everyone BSD pulls off with linking a list of ptes to the page
<heat> otoh they use a singly linked list which is not ideal in 2024
<heat> i also learned they have mach vm
<mjg> it is a fbsd 4 fork
<mjg> well into maching it
<heat> yeah but matthew dillon being a very opinionated "performance guy" he very well could've changed it
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<mjg> fair
<mjg> i don't know what he thinks about the entire mach debacle tho
<geist> re: the apple 2 multitasker, i think it may have been musys
<geist> and/or anix
<geist> but i think anix is really just a unix like shell for the regular DOS on apple 2
<heat> when i get some more free time i so want to implement swapping and an oom killer
<heat> it'll be so cool
<heat> i'll finally have a vm i will be vaguely proud of
<gog> ooom
<mjg> oomms killer
<mjg> do you know how to kill a freebsd box
<gog> a guru meditation
<mjg> dd if=/dev/null of=$tmpmount
<mjg> and you are dead
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<gog> what's $tmpmount
<Ermine> oom don't kill my browser plox
<mjg> $ indicated a shell variable gog
<gog> it smells like $tmpmount in here
<heat> can fbsd tmpfs swap?
<mjg> i don't remember, probably not
<bslsk05> ​lore.kernel.org: m68k 54418 fails to execute user space
<mjg> netbsd probably has better support :D
<heat> linux tmpfs can totes swap (and is treated like anon memory in lru lists and shizzle)
<heat> so for linux you'll have a little bit of leeway before killing the machine
<heat> though it's usually size limited by default as well?
<zid> That's just the level over teen spirit, gog
<gog> not much what's $tmpmount with you
<heat> upgog
<mjg> here is an irc game from my irc teenage years
<mjg> ready?
<mjg> keep decrementing, i start
<mjg> 3
<Ermine> is it pre-decrement or post decrement?
<nikolapdp> 2
<mjg> keep going folks
<heat> upmjg
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<mjg> you guys suck
<heat> >irc teenage years
<heat> my condolencen
<mjg> so here is a joke which does not work on the interwebz, but you may use irl
<mjg> ey heat, do you have dickfor
<nikolapdp> heat what are you talking about, you're doing the same
<Mondenkind> oh gooooddd i'm realising that more of my teenage years were spent on irc than off it
<heat> i'm not a teenage
<heat> r
<mjg> Mondenkind: :D
<Mondenkind> wait didn't i first get on irc when i was like 12
<heat> mjg, what's dickfor
<mjg> did you intentionally "fall for it" or did you actually fall for it
<heat> alley oop
<heat> just dunk it boss
<mjg> ... :D
<mjg> bro
<mjg> what's dick for? ask your parents for "the talk" mon
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<heat> eh the punchline is a little off
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<mjg> mofo
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<mjg> you are supposed to say "what's a dick for" and realize you done goofed
<mjg> there is no punchline
<Ermine> it's a definition of a punchline
<mjg> i am sayin' there is nothing to say afterwards mofer
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<heat> does anyone know if the linux tcp/ip network stack was "inspired" or taken from any BSD?
<mjg> :D
<mjg> i only know dave miller does not like the bsd
<mjg> and that there was some beef
<heat> i'm asking this cuz 1) the file structure is similar to the BSDs 2) matthew dillon is listed as an author of (at least) tcp_output.c
<mjg> ? :D
<mjg> fwiw dillon submitted some patches to linux
<heat> if he did, it was pre-bitkeeper
<heat> the historical git repos aren't helping here
<Ermine> what did they use before bitkeeper
<mjg> tarballs
<mjg> literally
<gog> rcs
<zid> tape drives
<mjg> cvs ci "loller"
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<Ermine> there was a guy named Fred van Kempen which is supposedly the early contributor to linux TCP/IP. So he probably knows the answer
<heat> there are a lot of different contributors here
<heat> original stack in 0.98 looks very different
<mjg> pretend to be a girl
<mjg> tell miller he can kiss you if he can answer some qeustions
<mjg> then prod him
<heat> yo the 2.2 net/Changes lists STREAMS as a possible project
<heat> do you think they'll still take it
<mjg> well that made sense at the time
<bslsk05> ​www.linuxjournal.com: Interview with Fred van Kempen | Linux Journal
<heat> it's worth noting that the network stack seemed to use cvs or whatever this is
<heat> with the $Id: lines
<Ermine> > Since then, the Linux NET code has been vastly improved
<mjg> wait till some twat claims the supposedly imrpoved code is dogshit
<mjg> how much of that code even survies today
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<zid> oh, I know ARIS
<zid> they made dialup modems and stuff
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<Ermine> is "twat" a part of mjgspeak
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<Mondenkind> what's the difference between upmjg and upgog
<heat> mjg, personally i wouldn't expect that much code being changed
<heat> on the protocol side at least
<heat> i should remind you that the BSD socket api practically requires large ass socket locks
<heat> so not much churn in the name of scalability
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<mjg> Mondenkind: upgog is an uptown girl, but i'm not a downtown boy
<bslsk05> ​www.acm.org: ACM Recognizes Innovators Who Solve Real World Problems
<heat> linus in shambles
<heat> the more i read the recipients list the more i think this is a sick joke
<heat> llvm got it before gcc, sel4 and minix got it before linux, freebsd and windows. yikes
<Mondenkind> heyyy guy blelloch
<Mondenkind> we stan guy blelloch
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<heat> i stan Mondenkind
<Mondenkind> :3
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<Ermine> heat: microkernels are defo great if you need to publish some papers
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<dostoyevsky2> > MINIX was a small microkernel-based UNIX operating system for the IBM PC, which was popular at the time
<dostoyevsky2> Sounds like `So I Tied An Onion To My Belt, Which Was The Style At The Time'
<kof673> :D sun symbol suppposedly that was a real thing in the hat :D
<Ermine> and, since some people come to #minix to get help with their homework (and get politely asked to fuck off), some places use minix in their courses
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<dostoyevsky2> Is ACM still that relevant these days?
<Ermine> relevant in what sense?