klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
<zid> banned :(
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<mjg> lol
<mjg> fedora/vdamewood
<mjg> what gives mate
<mjg> are you a contributor
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<zzo38> Matrices can be useful for some kind of calculations. (For example, you can compute the derivative of a function f(x) by passing f([x,1;0,x]) instead; the result will be [f(x),f'(x);0,f(x)].)
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<zzo38> Also, to use macros (or any other language features) in Haskell, you must add a declaration at the beginning of the file of what language features you are using, so you can easily tell which files will use macros by the top of the file. Also, I think macros are much less often used in libraries than they are in C, so it is less likely that you will have to use them.
<kof673> re: returning structures... i might just do "out" parameters struct foo * ret_foo or even.... void * * ret_vp (must not be NULL, if *ret_vp then user already allocated, else on success, *ret_vp points to where malloc()-allocated
<zzo38> I do often do things like that, although sometimes returning structures directly (especially small structures) makes sense.
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<kof673> yeah, i typically just put in separate out parameters :D i know it costs a dereference...but that is my habit because sometimes with say 4 args, i let user pass NULL for "don't care for that return value" .... so they can get just the part(s) they want, and then the return value is for success/error/specific error/whatever
<kof673> not saying that is good...just why i rarely would end up with returning a structure...it is either * (null on failure) or return value (success/failure/etc.)
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<childlikempress> 'you can compute the derivative of a function f(x) by passing f([x,1;0,x]) instead; the result will be [f(x),f'(x);0,f(x)]' what does this mean
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<childlikempress> presumably f is a function defined over scalars so what does it mean to pass a matrix into it
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<zzo38> It can still work; e.g. (x^3-10x^2) is still meaningful with matrices, because you can multiply a square matrix by itself, and you can multiply by scalars, and add/subtract a scalar multiple of identity matrix, and can add/subtract matrices of the same size.
<zzo38> Also e^x also you can do it because e^x = x^0/0!+x^1/1!+x^2/2!+x^3/3!+x^4/4!+... so that also will be possible to calculate with matrices, too.
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<childlikempress> ok, so it obviously works for +- and *k. i convinced myself it works for *x (general exponentiation) if you turn it into matrix multiplication/exponentiation https://0x0.st/XAnW.txt. i find your taylor series argument convincing. but now i need to taylor-ify everything so meh
<childlikempress> more generally it seems like there must be some underlying structure revealed here but i don't understand what
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<sortie> <heat_> sortie just banned passing some types of fds (unix sockets) for sortix which is technically ok i guess
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<sortie> nikolapdp: I only ban sending an unix socket over another unix socket, if it already has any fds being sent on it
<mjg> is this the easy way out
<nikolar> how often does that happen anyway
<nikolar> passing sockets over sockets
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<mjg> it only happens with people trying to fuck with the system
<nikolapdp> so basically it's a feature to prevent you from doing that
<mjg> makes sortix literally unusable
<mjg> windows93.net is my only os now
<sortie> Basically it prevents cycles. If a Unix socket has a fd being sent on it, you cannot send that fd over another Unix socket (until the original socket is free of fds).
<nikolapdp> what are you running it on mjg
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<sortie> nikolapdp: Imagine a e.g. an init style daemon spawner that listens on all the unix sockets, and spawns processes in time, transferring the sockets to the processes over a communication channel
<mjg> sortie: easy way out
<mjg> nikolapdp: GNU/onyx
<sortie> mjg, alternative is garbage collection, in my reference cycled kernel??? I think not!!
<kazinsal> "sending a unix socket over another unix socket"
<kazinsal> yo dawg
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<mjg> funny part in the area is that old bsds used to have a global list of file pointers
<mjg> all allocated file pointers
<mjg> as in you fd_alloc or similar and it gets added there
<sortie> Like heat pointed out last night, they actually implemented this with garbage collection in v7 unix
<mjg> solely for ccle scans
<kazinsal> there's a lot of real clever stuff implemented in bizarre ways in ancient unix
<sortie> In my OO designed kernel, doing garbage collection would actually be quite hard
<mjg> i wonder how would this look like RUST
<kazinsal> iirc the pre-v6 file system uses recursion in its block allocation algorithm
<kazinsal> to save space on disk
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<immibis> sortie: that sounds like a reliability nightmare more than a garbage collector is. Sending a Unix socket FD could fail at any time.
<immibis> and then what are you supposed to do about it?
<sortie> immibis: There is a reasonable predictable rule
<immibis> read and discard messages until sending succeeds?
<sortie> Basically you would have a situation where Unix Socket A contains Unix Socket B which contains file descriptor C
<sortie> I imagine it's very rare in the first place to send a unix socket over a unix socket
<immibis> I don't imagine it's that rare. It will be very rare in your OS because it suffers from failures caused by race conditions that applications can't do very much about.
<sortie> And if you do so, Unix Socket A is usually an important communication channel designed for this, and Unix Socket B is not, it's just a more regular one. And Unix Socket B is probably still being set up and isn't activated and used yet, i.e. there wouldn't be a File Descriptor C on it
<nikolapdp> so you only allow i imagine you'd becompletely fine forbiding sockets over sockets
<sortie> I do allow sockets over sockets, and it is a useful and powerful feature, it just has that one restriction
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<kazinsal> one of these days I should probably read up on the semantics of unix sockets
<kazinsal> I don't think I've ever actually written any code that uses them
<nikolar> what i meant is that you could probably forbid it and not even notice
<sortie> Yet I don't want to restrict things more than I need to since it is a powerful and useful facility
<immibis> yeah so imagine that init daemon you mentioned. If any server program receives FDs on its unix sockets (e.g. dbus server, x11 server) it can't possibly be used with this unit system because it will randomly fail to transfer the socket to the new process based on the client's timing.
<sortie> But garbage collection is extremely difficult to implement in my kernel and it would only handle one super rare weird corner case
<sortie> That is a fair point
<immibis> Linux also has a garbage collector in it for this one super rare weird corner case.
<sortie> But sending a file descriptor immediately on a first date is considered rude
<immibis> then you are inventing weird rules
<sortie> I hear you
<immibis> like you can't run dbus, only sortie-dbus
<immibis> which is a variation that makes sure to do a round trip before sending any FDs
<sortie> I don't do that kind of socket stuff in my init though
<nikolapdp> why would you want to run dbus anyway, sounds like a feature :P
<sortie> It has full dependency tracking and starts daemons up in the right order
<immibis> actually dbus sends creds on its first byte, not FDs, but you can probably send FDs on the first round trip in some scenario
<immibis> or imagine a different authentication option that uses an FD
<sortie> But again: It is extremely difficult for me to implement garbage collection. The entire kernel is built deeply around reference counting and encapsulated object oriented principles with private fields and interfaces. It's not designed for outsiders to go poke and recognize internals.
<sortie> I build loads and loads and loads of kernel stuff where nothing ever needed this and then very late game I realize this obscure edge case was supposedly a requirement?
<sortie> For a case that's super rare and I can forbid?
<sortie> If anything breaks, I'm sure I can find solutions
<sortie> Even if it is sortie-dbus
<sortie> Cus I can patch any ports I want
<nikolapdp> PATCHEN
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<heat> sortie, i don't see how implementing unix socket gc would be any harder than it is on existing C kernels
<heat> they have refcounts too, and the OO stuff should simply be a non-factor as well
<sortie> heat: OO stuff is a big reason why it's not easy
<sortie> It means e.g. the Unix socket class has to go poking through the private encapsulation of the file descriptor class, through the vnode, and then back to an inode, which it then has to recognize as it's own type
<sortie> Not to mention the recursive lock issues here that could deadlock
<sortie> You need to essentially do a GC cycle on close() of a Unix socket
<sortie> It really is just not how my kernel works at all
<sortie> The Sortix way is that if a tiny little requirement gets in the way of a simple, clean, efficient solution; then we explore if that requirement can be dropped or amended so a better implementation is possible.
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<nikolapdp> the sortix philosophy
<sortie> ungetc for instance is a similar thing, where it's mere existence, means all of stdio needs to cooperate. In this case, it was not worth it to get rid of it, and I accepted the complexity.
<kof673> not ... to put words into anyone...but c.f. new jersey versus mit whatever :D something something 90%, the last 10% takes 90% of the time to implement, etc.
<sortie> nikolapdp: It's a real thing. Granted it's mostly headcanon and unwritten, but the members of my #sortix community will definitely know a lot of the guiding principles I use all the time. You gotta have a philosophy of some sort if you're writing an operating system, or you will default into one.
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<kof673> ^^^ you get someone's philosophy no matter what :D
<sortie> I mean if you rush into something and build it quick without thinking too much, that is also a philosophy in of itself
<kof673> yep
<sortie> The best thing about osdev is that it's 100% philosophy in a way. Cus yeah you get to hello world, but after that? You have endless choices.
<GeDaMo> "The first 90 percent of the code accounts for the first 90 percent of the development time. The remaining 10 percent of the code accounts for the other 90 percent of the development time." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety%E2%80%93ninety_rule
<sortie> GeDaMo: A lot of that is also why osdev is competitive. You can do a lot with the first effort.
<sortie> You gotta appreciate e.g. how much Linux and Windows has gone out of their way to explicitly intentionally suck and be complex
<sortie> If you just do the simple thing, you cannot compete with their complexity, and that is an advantage
<GeDaMo> Part of the complexity is because of backwards compatibility
<sortie> Part of the complexity is just plain bad ideas implemented weirdly
<GeDaMo> "It seemed like a good idea at the time" :P
<sortie> Part of the complexity is good and needed
<sortie> But in a new OS, you have the opportunity to rethink these tradeoffs
<kazinsal> part of it is because we predicated the structure of the entire internet one some finnish college student's hacker project
<kof673> > you cannot compete with their complexity, and that is an advantage sort ie is winning at double-sided wisdom today lol
<GeDaMo> Even if your own system is simple, you still have to deal with external complexity
<sortie> kazinsal: Sortix is a big and professional operating system unlike the Linux hobby operating system. I tried Linux once but didn't bother with setting up an initrd and it paniced. https://pub.sortix.org/sortix/screenshots/sortix-cross-compiling-linux-kernel.png
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<FreeFull> I once got rustc to compile binaries that ran on sortix
<FreeFull> Didn't really take it anywhere beyond a basic graphical mandelbrot renderer, though
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<nikolar> sortie: what an amateurish system that linux is
<sortie> I hear it's pretty advanced by now but it's a lot of work to build it all. This Linux from Scratch guide will take some time to complete on Sortix
<zid> nikolar: Please be patient with linux, it is from the 1900s
<nikolar> Ah that explains it
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<heat> sortie, on my kernel it'll be relatively easy to check if a given fd is a unix socket
<heat> from there it's pretty simple
<heat> and my network stack is *by far* the most OOP-y C++-y part of the kernel
<heat> i actually use classes there
<heat> and INHERITANCE
<mjg> OH
<mjg> no cussing
<heat> inheritance isn't cussing
<heat> multiple inheritance is
<mjg> DIAMOND
<heat> diamonds are a programmer's best friend
<kof673> > Flute Boy is a young man who, before Link, went to Death Mountain to search for the Golden Power narrator: you must putrify first
* kof673 sides with heat
<nikolapdp> heat i thought you wrote in c
<heat> mostly yeah
<nikolapdp> so no then
<heat> i can trivially convert most of my kernel into C
<heat> silly header dependencies aside
<heat> i won't do it atm because there's little reason for the churn, and the little RAII helpers are nice, usually
<nikolapdp> so not c then
<heat> i feel like when i say "i basically write C" you skip the "basically"
<nikolapdp> well you either write c or you don't
<heat> and it's not a valid way to read sentences
<nikolapdp> c doesn't have lambdas or classes or inheritance or aii
<nikolapdp> raii
<heat> 1) yet
<nikolapdp> ok, knowing how the c comittee seems to be working now, that's actually a fair argument
<heat> 2) you don't write C, C does not have __attribute__ nor statement expressions nor inline asm nor typeof nor...
<heat> you either write C, or you don't
<zid> he's still trolling about that?
<zid> christ
<nikolapdp> lol
<GeDaMo> To C or not to C, that is the question? :P
<nikolapdp> for heat, it's clearly not to C
<heat> oh yes i'm definitely trolling about that, i even brought the topic into the discussion!
<heat> <heat> i thought i wrote in c
<heat> smh heat
<nikolapdp> you did repeatedly say that you write c
<heat> no, i have repeatedly said i write very-Cish C++, i've also written and read and model my code around lots of C code
<nikolapdp> no, you've repeatedly said you wrote c until you got called out
<nikolapdp> then you started with c-isjh
<heat> wrong
<nikolapdp> lol sure
<GeDaMo> 🅲
<zid> GeDaMo ur black box has a smudge
<nikolapdp> > Enclosed Alphanumeric Supplement
<zid> won't be seeing night like that in scotsland for a while
<zid> you're on like 4 hours of nautical twilight, 0 hours astro twilight, 0 hours night
<GeDaMo> Yeah
<zid> I get a bit of astro, I'm a southern jessie
<heat> it doesn't matter anyway, we'll all be writing rust in no time
<bslsk05> ​www.timeanddate.com: Sunrise and sunset times in Aberdeen
<nikolapdp> oh that's neat
<nikolapdp> we get like two and a half hours of actual night
<zid> wow, pathetic, actual night
<GeDaMo> I'm a reverse vampire! :P
<nikolapdp> nice
<zid> That's what edin looed like last night
<GeDaMo> That's the sort of thing we have too
<zid> you're only a couple miles away
<GeDaMo> Plus 100 or so :|
<zid> could walk that
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<nikolapdp> just do (echo '<'; bla | cut)
<nikolapdp> per line
<zid> I knew it involved parens
<zid> but I forgor how
<zid> nah doesn't work
<zid> cus I have more than one line
<zid> while read line; do echo "<" $line; done? :P
<nikolapdp> you could also be silly and do bla | cut| sed -En 's/(.*)/<\1/p'
<zid> | awk '{print "<" $0}'
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<heat> nikolapdp, does 2.11BSD have sed and awk?
<nikolapdp> it does actually
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<heat> cool
<heat> they sound like later inventions so i guess they were backported
<heat> awk at least
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<nikolapdp> heat: Nov 30, 1979: Awk has been modified yet again...
<nikolapdp> apparently, maybe not
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<heat> huh, TIL
<nikolapdp> can't remember if it was there in unix v7
<heat> what patch are you on?
<nikolapdp> 195
<nikolapdp> that's like 1993-1994 i think
<heat> 1994 woah
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<heat> i'm diving thru the more recent patches
<heat> your cc doesn't even support ansi C!
<nikolapdp> it doesn't yea
<nikolapdp> had to change the code for the client to do k&r functions
<nikolapdp> also it has partitions hard coded in drivers
<nikolapdp> unlike disklabels the later patches introduced
<nikolapdp> also seems to be a bit more unstable than geist's so probably that was improved too
<heat> it's admittedly pretty cool some randos still maintain a random unix version for a random old unobtanium machine
<nikolapdp> it's probably less unobtanium than you think
<nikolapdp> at least in the us
<nikolapdp> over here in europe, yeah it's practically unobtainable
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<heat> we were still discovering fire by the time the PDP-11 was out in the US
<nikolapdp> apparently lol
<nikolapdp> i don't even know if it ever became a thin in any european country
<nikolapdp> like i wouldn't be surprised if there are like less than a 100 pdp-11 in all of europe (ignoring the weird soviet clones)
<mjg> still more than netbsd deployments
<mjg> #shortsfired
<nikolapdp> kek
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<heat> i use midnightbsd
<nikolapdp> that's a thing
<mjg> i use mirbsd
<mjg> i win
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<nikolapdp> i use bsd
<nikolapdp> i win
<mjg> which one
<mjg> cause you probably don't
<mjg> win
<heat> you can't ever win using bsd
<mjg> you are a negative nancy heat
<heat> sorry mjg i'm team sysv
<mjg> respectable
<heat> sigrelse gang
<mjg> poll or select
* mjg is a select guy
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* Ermine yawns
<heat> is /dev/poll an option?
<mjg> of course, but then you lose
<Ermine> you can't win with linux either
<mjg> linux is autolose
<heat> ofc Ermine you only win with windows
<heat> windowen operating system
<Ermine> fk you stole my line
<heat> the moment you install windowen is the moment you touch grass
<nikolapdp> who needs grass anyway
<Ermine> i have windowen installed, do i need to reinstall it
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<mjg> pop quiz
<mjg> is it "x window system" or "x windowen system"
<kof673> mechanism, not policy
<nikolapdp> it's "x windowing system"
<nikolapdp> smh
<Ermine> 1st
<mjg> kof673: bloat, not leanness
<Ermine> BLOAT
<kof673> yes, but i mean the spirit of x is they can't pick a spelling :D
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<HeTo> http://www.dosemu.org/ seems to imply you can win with Linux
<bslsk05> ​www.dosemu.org: DOSEMU Main Page
<Ermine> sure sure, let me install i386 linux first
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<nikolapdp> dang, wrong terminal :P
<Ermine> hello there
<nikolapdp> oi
<heat> mjg, trick question, it's "en windowing system"
<heat> you didn't think i'd spot the hidden plural
<HeTo> I was surprised to find out that version 1.2.2 claims x86-64 support with emulation for 16-bit code and running DPMI code natively
<Ermine> xen windowing system
<Ermine> virtual 8086 mode goes brrrrr
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<kof673> x has root window and x nest so....definitely windowen, definitely windowen </rain man>
<kof673> *xnest nested x server
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<mjg> y window system
<mjg> ey heat, history quiz
<mjg> what was before x11
<mjg> what was before x
<GeDaMo> W
<mjg> i asked the genz, boomer
<mjg> but since you are speaking up, what does 'dd' stand for
<GeDaMo> I can't remember it's some IBM thing
<mjg> no
<kof673> the kids say disk destroyer :D
<mjg> it's "convert and copy" but cc was already taken
<nikolapdp> kek
<GeDaMo> «According to Dennis Ritchie, the name is an allusion to the DD statement found in IBM's Job Control Language (JCL),[3][4] in which it is an abbreviation for "Data Definition"» https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd_%28Unix%29
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<mjg> huj
<mjg> huh even
<mjg> where is that from
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<GeDaMo> Looks like Usenet
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<mjg> i don't recall for shit where i got the cc thing from
<mjg> it's been quite some time now
<GeDaMo> That's also on Usenet :P
<GeDaMo> But given the IBM thing comes from Dennis Ritchie, I think I have to go with that
<mjg> is it dennis ritchie posting that statement
<mjg> if so i take it
<mjg> or is it someone claiming dmr said this muhc
<dostoyevsky2> > Dr Andrew S Tanenbaum – often known as "ast" for short – has been honored in the ACM Technical Awards 2023 with the Association for Computing Machinery's Software System prize. The award is for his creation of the MINIX operating system. It's not as famous as the offspring it directly inspired – the Linux kernel. As well as that, though, MINIX 3 is a true FOSS microkernel OS, and as it's the
<dostoyevsky2> software that powers the system management controller embedded in most modern Intel processors, it's exceptionally widely used.
<GeDaMo> The name is Dennis Ritchie but the email address is hidden https://groups.google.com/g/alt.folklore.computers/c/HAWoZ8g-xYk/m/HDUVxwTVLKAJ
<bslsk05> ​groups.google.com: origin of the UNIX dd command
<mjg> huh
<mjg> ok that's probably true then
<mjg> kind of a bummer
<mjg> apart from being funny the cc story does seem fitting
<nikolapdp> yeah definitely sounds like an early unix story
* mjg puts it next to "640KB ought to be enough for everyone" quote
<mjg> :[
<mjg> GeDaMo: thanks for ruining my childhood
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<GeDaMo> You're welcome! :P
<mjg> :]
<zid> kind of ironic that minix ended being the management slave for the cpu to run the real software, linux
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<nikolapdp> somehow randomly lost internet at home
<nikolapdp> nice
<zid> I stole it
<zid> Your internet is a time share now
<nikolapdp> hey put it back
<nikolapdp> i need that
<zid> I needed to send a packet to greece so I just used yours
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<zid> The other, better, balkan microstate
<nikolapdp> SERBIA BEST
<zid> serbia isn't even the best country in the dinaric alps
<nikolapdp> like you'd know
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<bslsk05> ​thursdayquiz-2023-july-06.tiiny.site: Symmetry puzzles
<zid> are they aware this is absolutely unhinged
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<zzo38> I think it is useful to send UNIX sockets over UNIX sockets though (my operating system design effectively requires something like that, because all file descriptors work much like UNIX sockets)
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