<dostoyevsky2>
BSD doesn't have nvidia drivers usually... but OpenBSD I also use
<mjg>
?
<nikolar>
dostoyevsky2: hello :)
<mjg>
freebsd had nvidia drivers since forever
<GeDaMo>
Devuan doesn't use snaps either
<mjg>
they even had a blob for solaris
<nikolar>
Other bsds don't though, right
<mjg>
> "If this is the solution, I want my problem back."
<mjg>
lol
<nikolar>
What's that
<mjg>
dude that page even links midgnightbsd
<dostoyevsky2>
mjg: ah, interesting... well, the other thing is docker, can't really work on my laptops without it
<mjg>
i don't think that's curated by any standard
<mjg>
dostoyevsky2: ye that is a common blocker
<nikolar>
Kek I managed to boot artix with upstart
<nikolar>
I was thinking about adding it to the repos unofficially :)
<dostoyevsky2>
nikolar: I was comparing OpenBSD's init.c with pdpbsd2.11's init.c ... looks quite different, but in the end they keep it quite minimalistic
<bslsk05>
www.theregister.com: Version 256 of systemd boasts '42% less Unix philosophy' • The Register
<GeDaMo>
"And it's subsuming another bit of Linux by replacing sudo"
<dostoyevsky2>
Isn't the proper name MicroSoft Systemd?
<GeDaMo>
The Register do refer to Lennart Poettering as "Agent P" :P
<dostoyevsky2>
which distro is debian without systemd?
<GeDaMo>
Devuan
<nikolar>
Kek
<dostoyevsky2>
ah
<nikolar>
Artix is arch without systemd
<gog>
i want systemdos
<Ermine>
i want systemddos
<gog>
an OS where systemd replaces all components and services
<nikolar>
Isn't that what Linux is becoming anyway :P
<GeDaMo>
GNU/Linux => SystemD/Linux
<Ermine>
i didn't like artix
<nikolar>
Why not may I ask
<dostoyevsky2>
When they add Recall to MicroSoft SystemD you can always find old boot messages easily
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<Ermine>
they try to support many init systems instead of focusing on one, so 1) they don't exploit each to its fullest power, 2) it affects overall distro quality
<nikolar>
Interesting
<heat>
oooh we're talking about init systems now
<Ermine>
Yessss
<nikolar>
More like systemdless distros
<nikolar>
But sure
<heat>
omg i hate systemd
<heat>
the way it systems and then d's
<heat>
seriously, pisses me off
<dostoyevsky2>
which alternatives are there besides OpenRC?
<nikolar>
upstart kek
<Ermine>
heat: before you've joined, i said "i didn't like artix'
<Ermine>
but here I should stop partaking in this discussion
<dostoyevsky2>
Ermine: Are we not flaming you enough?
<heat>
it's such an interesting discussion
<Ermine>
no
<Ermine>
I had enough of those discussions in this life
<heat>
i too take the choice of what software calls other software in the event i turn it on, really seriously
<GeDaMo>
"Wherever there was a stream, the Red Weed^W^Wsystemd clung and grew with frightening voraciousness, its claw-like fronds choking the movement of the water, and then it began to creep like a slimy red animal across the land, covering field and ditch and tree and hedgerow with living scarlet feelers, crawling, crawling!"
<nikolar>
heat good for you
<gog>
i hate all software
<Ermine>
reject software, embrace hardware
<gog>
yes
<Ermine>
move gates and shit by hand
<heat>
reject systemd reject upstart reject openrc reject linux kernel
<Ermine>
"With 42% less Unix philosophy" --- is it to trigger proponets of Unix philosophy?
<Ermine>
proponents*
<nikolar>
Someone's linked that article already I think
<nikolar>
Oh no never mind
<GeDaMo>
I linked the Register story about it
<heat>
Ermine: yes and it is hilarious
<Ermine>
it's not
<heat>
i find it hilarious
<Ermine>
No matter of do you like said philosophy or not, it's unproffessional behaviour
<nikolar>
Indeed
<nikolar>
heat your sense of humor is lame clearly
<heat>
he's not even paid for this
<Ermine>
afaik he's systemd dev nonetheless
<heat>
by that logic i really should delete the GNU/Onyx copypasta in my README because how do i dare make fun of the great GNU project
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<nikolar>
Well your project is a parody of Linux anyways so you can keep the copypasta :P
<nikolar>
*anyway
<Ermine>
that copypasta doesn't trigger anybody
<Ermine>
Well, ok
<heat>
if you link my project to the gnu mailing list you'll get some 10 replies of textwalls saying my project is an affront to the free software movement and how the copypasta is SO. NOT. FUNNY.
<heat>
meanwhile the pope's saying you can make fun of god
<Ermine>
ok, ok, i get the point
<heat>
i got a security update for my phone
<heat>
thats nice
<GeDaMo>
How old is the phone?
<heat>
2020
<heat>
i had like 3 years of actual android updates, now i apparently still get some security updates from time to time, which is nice
<nikolar>
That is nice indeed
<heat>
samsung is, IMV, the least bad vendor
<Ermine>
I've got a bios feature upgrade on my laptop recently btw
<nikolar>
Oh yeah I should probably update the firmware on my ssds
<Ermine>
I'm going to buy pixel as my next phone
<Ermine>
I'm pissed off by samsung
<heat>
why
<heat>
it's perfectly cromulent
<Ermine>
my current phone with exynos chip easily overheats and discharges quickly (like half a day)
<heat>
sadge
<mcrod>
hi
<Ermine>
hi
<heat>
mcrod what phone do you use
<mcrod>
iphone
<heat>
yikes
<heat>
/votekick mcrod
<mcrod>
iphone 14 pro max to be precise
<Ermine>
I've considered iphone at some point
<nikolar>
kick kick kick
<mcrod>
i refuse to use an android phone
<mcrod>
i had one when I was a teenager, then I grew more than 10 brain cells
* mcrod
run
<Ermine>
Also samsung agreed to preinstall russian potential spyware
* Ermine
wishes linux phones were a thing
<nikolar>
Which one
<Ermine>
which one what
<nikolar>
Btw your phones are full of all sorts of spyware anyway so doubt that you'll even notice one more
<nortti>
there is sailfishos which you can get on some sony xperia models, and from what I hear it's actually pretty good, tho suffers from lack of software support
<mcrod>
Ermine this was attempted
<mcrod>
as expected, it crashed and burned
<mcrod>
as in, it never got off the ground
<heat>
whaaaaaaaaat
<mcrod>
I'm not talking about ANDROID
<mcrod>
i'm talking about openmoko
<heat>
well that's because it was running systemd
<nortti>
there was also maemo (> meego > mer > sailfishos, to simplify) and nowadays stuff like postmarketos
<mcrod>
to be clear, the cost of an iphone is ridiculous, but I can't see how I would use anything else personally
<mcrod>
i don't use my phone for anything but apps, calls, and messages
<Ermine>
I've heard about sailfishos
<mcrod>
i don't need it to do 23804723482934 things and care about 238u40273489234 options that I'll forget I ever fucked with
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<nikolar>
What else is there to do on phones other than apps, calls, and messages
<heat>
well then why are you buying an iphone
<GeDaMo>
I think I'll just a dumbphone next time :|
<Ermine>
Mon, everybody is using their phones for apps, calls and messages
<nikolar>
Literally
<mcrod>
yes, and I say that all the time
<mcrod>
this is all well and good
<mcrod>
but the android people insist on doing a bunch of bullshit customizations that for the life of me I can't see what the purpose of it is at all
<heat>
what
<mcrod>
doesn't matter anyway, it'll go to the google graveyard soon enough
<Ermine>
do they?
<nikolar>
What indeed
<nortti>
are you talking of whatever samsung is up to?
<mcrod>
ok i'll clarify
<mcrod>
yes
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<nortti>
from what I can tell no other manufacturers do that kinda stuff anymore
<nortti>
or well, at least no other manufacturers whose phones I've seen
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<heat>
ime all vendors do that kind of shit
<heat>
it's their way of making money
<mcrod>
I really don't know the answer to this question: do manufacturers ever ship plain, vanilla android
<heat>
you don't want the answer
<Ermine>
There was android one thing
<heat>
well, if you do: it's yes, some do, and that experience FUCKING SUCKS
<nortti>
google does, and I think nokia used to at least
<mcrod>
why does it suck?
<heat>
the default apps are so shit
<nortti>
motorola either does or ships something that behaves quite similarly
<heat>
i had an asus phone that had a vanilla android, the experience was so fucking bad
<nortti>
heat: do you mean the google apps or the AOSP apps?
<heat>
it was insane
<mcrod>
it sounds like you're telling me "android actually does suck, so manufacturers have to pick up the pieces and they barely manage to pull it off"
<heat>
base android sucks
<mcrod>
well, there we go
<heat>
there we go what
<heat>
is base darwin a good operating system?
<mcrod>
that's not the same thing
<mcrod>
and you know it
<heat>
why's it not?
<mcrod>
one is a core, the other markets itself as a full fledged every day ready to use operating system
<heat>
no one sells base darwin, no one sells base android
<heat>
the end.
<Ermine>
I'm still willing to buy a pixel
<mcrod>
apple doesn't market Darwin, they market macOS
<mcrod>
where base Android and Android, well, you can see where I'm going with this.
<nikolar>
That's what heat said about darwin
<mcrod>
no he didn't
<Ermine>
Hopefully charging slot will live for some more time
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<mcrod>
when I go to apple.com, I see "macOS", which we know under the hood is "darwin", but customers don't give a shit
<heat>
base android is an uncurated experience that no one sells or is supposed to sell
<heat>
hth
<Ermine>
heat: nobody except Apple is selling customized darwin either
<mcrod>
but when i look up android
<mcrod>
android is... android
<Ermine>
mcrod: ... which we know under the hood is "linux", but customers don't give a shit
<heat>
what you could be saying is
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<mcrod>
I guess I'm not getting my point across very well
<heat>
"the disparity between the vendors' android versions is annoying and bad for the end consumer"
<heat>
in which case, yes
<heat>
valid point
<mcrod>
there we go
<mcrod>
sounds like standard fragmentation to me
* Ermine
somewhat misses win phone
<zid>
standard standard fragmentation
* nortti
misses symbian somewhat, but knows it is unhealthy
<mcrod>
my cat is sleeping under my blanket
<Ermine>
Btw, android file manages suck when it comes to dealing with archives
<zid>
My cat is sleeping on the foot stool in the living room, FIGHT
<zid>
My cat coud beat up your cat btw
<mcrod>
possibly
<mcrod>
Ermine you need an app for that on iOS
<zid>
The downside of "there's an app for that" is
<zid>
"You need an app for that"
<mcrod>
indeed
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<dostoyevsky2>
when you use XNU as a base for an OS you get a OS but not many drivers, and the drivers are often the most difficult things to write...
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<dostoyevsky2>
But then I wonder if there is such a thing as an OS-independent driver
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<zid>
I've been scammed, the first packet in a sea monkeys kit actually has eggs in it
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<gog>
sick, i can use lldb to debug my efi now
<gog>
unfortunate that i need to know the load address in advance
<nikolapdp>
what did you say zid
<zid>
I've been scammed, the first packet in a sea monkeys kit actually has eggs in it
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<nikolapdp>
dostoyevsky2: the osdev wiki talks about such an initiative
<zid>
so does the egg packet, so do the food packets
<zid>
it's all eggs
<zid>
and salt
<nikolapdp>
unsurprisingly didn't take off
<nikolapdp>
zid: rude
<zid>
eventually the salt level will be right and the eggs will hatch, gg :P
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<zid>
the water conditioner (first packet) tells you to add and wait 24 hours, then add the 2nd packet with the 'sea monkeys' in it
<zid>
instead, packet 1 has eggs in and it takes 24 hours for them to start hatching
<dostoyevsky2>
nikolapdp: oh, cool... I was thinking whether that could be possible.. I mean the OpenSource OSes could be motivated to build a common code base, no?
<dostoyevsky2>
(for drivers)
<nikolapdp>
well it would be hard to make an efficient cross os interface on top of existing infrastructure i imagine
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<nikolapdp>
whatever you do you're favouring one, or none
<nikolapdp>
zid what kind of packets are we talking about
<zid>
sea monkeys
<zid>
gog knows what sea monkeys are
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<dostoyevsky2>
maybe the problem is that drivers are usually written at a time for OpenSource OSes when you can't really do a lot of fancy code sharing with other OSes, and later that becomes hard to readjust
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<dostoyevsky2>
but I guess paravirtualizing linux drivers is the next best thing
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<gog>
sea monkeys are brine shirmp
<gog>
also if your water is chlorinated i don't think they're going to hatch
<zid>
the chlorine reacts off in those 24 hours
<gog>
hm
<zid>
That's the point of chlorine in water to begin with, it's very reactive
<gog>
you're very reactive
<zid>
so anything that isn't water, gets turned into a chlorine salt
<gog>
put metallic sodium in there
<zid>
Salinity of your tank too low? TRY SEAMONKEY BRANDED SODIUM!
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<nikolapdp>
apparently some kek
<mcrod>
gog may I pet you
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<gog>
mcrod: yes
* mcrod
pets gog
* gog
prr
<nikolapdp>
pet may i gog you
* geist
yawns
<nikolar>
ello geist
* zid
feeds geist brine shrimp
<geist>
om nom
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<bslsk05>
imgur.com: Guy showing armadillo to people and their reactions - Album on Imgur
<zid>
You may fascinate a woman by giving her a piece of cheese *or showing her your armadillo*.
<FreeFull>
Be careful, armadillos can carry leprosy
<nikolar>
lol
<nikolapdp>
do i need to go get an armadillo now
<zid>
only erm
<zid>
the 5 banded armadillo?
<zid>
nine banded
<zid>
NINE bands
<zid>
and those are way different looking
<nikolar>
kek
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<kof673>
> armadillos can carry leprosy that's not a problem lol "...and of the dove/armadillo is born the phoenix..."
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<netbsduser>
dostoyevsky: there was such an initiative but good luck figuring out how it works
<netbsduser>
i forgot the details about this UDI thing but i do remember considering implementing it for a lark, but changing my mind (i think because you can't do modern scaling techniques: one NVMe queue per core, MSI directed at that core, work locklessly, that sort of thing)
<netbsduser>
kof673: i had no idea they also had a driver kit
<kof673>
> designed to allow existing device drivers to be borrowed from well-established operating systems in source form, and used unchanged
<netbsduser>
i think this is what Mach was using to adopt Linux 2.2 drivers
<kof673>
well i am just quoting docs... mach and stuff yes .... gcc 2.95 or earlier even maybe ....
<netbsduser>
but now i think they'd rather leverage NetBSD rump
<netbsduser>
what i do know is that the GNUsters butchered their mach so they could miport linux 2.2 drivers
<kof673>
> Other device driver interface standards, such as SVR4’s DDI/DKI and UDI [1], are not designed to allow easy adaptation of existing drivers
<netbsduser>
this included adding a direct map
<kof673>
for even more fun, i think next called their stuff "driverkit" and similar lol
<dostoyevsky2>
netbsduser: `but now i think they'd rather leverage NetBSD rump' <- how can one leverage netbsd rump? Using it like a driver OS to host your own OS?
<dostoyevsky2>
I guess netbsd is interesting as a host OS considering all the platforms it supports
<netbsduser>
dostoyevsky2: netbsd is an anykernel now
<netbsduser>
a tiny subset of netbsd can run as a user process to host a netbsd driver, even on a foreign OS
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<dostoyevsky2>
netbsduser: oh, that's a great effort
<dostoyevsky2>
kind of reminds me how zfs also has a tiny subset of solaris in it
<dostoyevsky2>
netbsduser: but if you were to use a userland driver in your OS that's probably also a lot of effort to get such an API working
<dostoyevsky2>
Would that already be a mach kernel then?
<dostoyevsky2>
Or microkernel rather
<netbsduser>
dostoyevsky2: not necessarily, linux is also having userland drivers noawadys
<netbsduser>
and gnu hurd is already on mach
<dostoyevsky2>
netbsduser: well, on linux the problem with userland drivers is that they can crash your system, so usually you might get a bit more performance but also a lot more potential for crashes if things go wrong.. but I heard that e.g. io_urig and others helped a lot with making kernel drivers as performance as userland drivers
<dostoyevsky2>
So I have seen userland drivers being popular some years ago, but these days not that much
<dostoyevsky2>
(on Linux)
<gog>
you have it backwards
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<gog>
io_uring makes userspace drivers a bit faster
<gog>
kernel drivers are mostly free from copies from user to system space
<kof673>
> This repository uses rump kernels to provide the Rumprun unikernel. Rumprun works on not only on hypervisors such as KVM and Xen, but also on bare metal. that too my understanding is you can limit an "app" to just bare minimum what it needs, for example
<netbsduser>
that's the other thing it offers
<netbsduser>
it is useful both for uni-kernels and for running netbsd drivers in foreign environments
<dostoyevsky2>
gog: well, you could replace the syscalls necessary to access device data by sharing internal buffers with the userland... so I don't necessarily see the useland driver like a real "driver" more like the VSDO stuff, which e.g. replaces the gettimeofday ... the ring buffers are setup by the kernel and could be setup in a way that makes it a lot harder to e.g. actually crash the OS
<gog>
if it responds to and commands a device or device class, it's a driver