klange changed the topic of #osdev to: Operating System Development || Don't ask to ask---just ask! || For 3+ LoC, use a pastebin (for example https://gist.github.com/) || Stats + Old logs: http://osdev-logs.qzx.com New Logs: https://libera.irclog.whitequark.org/osdev || Visit https://wiki.osdev.org and https://forum.osdev.org || Books: https://wiki.osdev.org/Books
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<Ermine> why
<vai> hi
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<heat> Ermine, DES is peak technology unlike BLOATED AES
<Mondenkind> you know there's triple des but i never heard of triple aes
<Mondenkind> that means des is 3 times as secure as aes
<heat> and that AES is three times as BLOATED by default
<Ermine> heat: one guy from suckless just invented his own algorithm, because everything else is BLOATED
<Mondenkind> lmao
<heat> int sucklesscrypto(const void *buf, size_t len) { return 1; }
<Ermine> real shit
<Ermine> but anyway, there's poly1305
<Ermine> heat: but usual crypto discussions are about whether $algorithm is BACKDOORED or not
<heat> crypto discussions where?
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<Ermine> in various shitty places on the internet
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<epony> zxrom, that's the ##wrong place to be ;-)
<epony> Поздравлаяю с Новым годом!
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<zxrom> epony, Thanks! And I congratulate you on the New Year! Where have you been? I haven't seen you on IRC for a long time.
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<epony> I am in my channel..
<epony> waiting for friends to talk to
<zxrom> epony, Link?
<epony> click the first line
<epony> the place to be
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<Ermine> geist: is there a script to run x86_64 lk in qemu, like do-qemuarm?
<Ermine> Sorry, nvmd
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<gog> hi
<Ermine> hi gog, may I pet you
<gog> yes
* Ermine pets gog
* gog prr
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<Matt|home> hello.
<jimbzy> Yo
<sham1> hello
<geist> Ermine: you found it i assume?
<Ermine> yes
<Ermine> https://wiki.osdev.org/GCC_Cross-Compiler -- how much these instructions are up to date?
<bslsk05> ​wiki.osdev.org: GCC Cross-Compiler - OSDev Wiki
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<sortie> Ermine, generally should be very up to date, these aspects change very little and it's one of the most important beginner articles
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<heat> ># The $PREFIX/bin dir _must_ be in the PATH. We did that above.
<heat> this is not true
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<Ermine> my issue was missing static libstdc++
<heat> why are you building a toolchain btw
<Ermine> lk needs x86_64-elf
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<heat> geist has toolchains
<bslsk05> ​newos.org: Index of /toolchains
<heat> yeah that
<Ermine> Okay, but I've built it already
<geist> though that's for standard linux,mac,etc
<geist> yah that's fine. also LK doesnt use libstdc++
<heat> WHY DO YOU NOT SHIP ALPINE LINUX MUSL TOOLCHAINS
<heat> AREYOUR TOOLCHAINS BLOATED
<Ermine> heat: skarnet does that
<heat> of course
<Ermine> geist: gcc uses that, I've got build errors without it
<geist> yes that's why my toolchains explicitly leave that out
<heat> you need libstdc++ for the build, but i'm not sure if you need *static* libstdc++
<bslsk05> ​github.com: toolchains/doit at master · travisg/toolchains · GitHub
<Ermine> I do
<Ermine> otherwise ld fails to find some symbol
<heat> thats weird
<Ermine> __throw_bad_array_new_length()
<geist> huh.
<Ermine> days without gcc being weird: 0
<geist> never seen that one before. but since it has throw in it i assume t's some exception handling thing
<Ermine> Nevermind, thank you for the toolchain!
<sham1> GCC ☕
<heat> my libstdc++.so has that symbol
<gog> hi
<heat> gog ☕
<gog> heat
<geist> yah those toolchains are just plaing C,C++ without a libc or libstdc++ but with a libgcc.a
<geist> basically minimum needed to do bare metal C,C++
<bslsk05> ​github.com: CMSIS_5/CMSIS/Core/Include/core_cm4.h at master · ARM-software/CMSIS_5 · GitHub
<geist> yeah, the CMSIS stuff is pretty messy
<heat> what's CMSIS?
<Ermine> heat: github runner failed to reach github: https://github.com/heatd/Onyx/actions/runs/7513156413/job/20454615923?pr=95
<bslsk05> ​github.com: tty: implement readv and writev · heatd/Onyx@ab1f6de · GitHub
<geist> CMSIS is arms library to abstract some of the details of cortex-m cores
<geist> basically a bunch of inline functions and constants for some of the low level bits
<geist> it's a bit messy but more useful than not
<Ermine> and wrappers around asm
<geist> it'd be like if intel put out a lib with simple wrappers around all of the low level bits in x86
<geist> but it's only for the cortex-m stuff
<heat> Ermine, average github actions build
<geist> i think it's because the rule for cortex-m programming is you should be able to do bare metal with zero assembly
<Ermine> also misra stuff
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<Cindy> hi
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<Mondenkind> no
<Cindy> bye
<Mondenkind> no
<Cindy> uh
<Cindy> i'm trapped
<nikolar> wait they have a pdp11-aout toolchain lol
<geist> yep! and vax
<geist> important stuff!
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<nikolar> important indeed lol
<nikolar> pdp11 is even gcc 13
<epony> nope
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<nikolar> what
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<experemental> hwat
<nikolar> good question
<geist> yes it is
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<heat> geist, what the fuck does vax linux do?
<geist> good question, i fiddled around and it was the simplest triple to compile for
<heat> heck, is VAX ELF even documented?
<geist> you'd think something like vax-netbsd would, but iirc it was much more complicated
<geist> sure it is, netbsd uses it and has for like 20 years
<heat> huh
<geist> asid efrom it being old there's nothing particularly special about VAX that would make it hard to use with modern toolchains *except* the non IEE854 float i guess
<netbsduser> netbsd/vax has been on ELF for a few years now
<geist> pdp11 i doubt ever got a elf format though, it being 16 bit and all
<geist> the BSD 2.11 i have here in my pdp11 is using a.out
<geist> though there's some sort of overlay extension to it that lets you compile up to like a 300KB binary
<netbsduser> elf without dynamic linking is a bit of a waste of effort, and it's tricky without a paged MMU, so i don't think there would ever be cause for it to exist
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<geist> right, something like a.out would be sufficient, since for the most part it's just a simple header that says text is this big, data is that big, bss is that big
<geist> though clearly there's some sort of etension stuff going on for the 300KB pdp11 binary thing, if nothing else because there's an option for separate I and D address space
<geist> that immediately gets you an up to 128KB binary
<heat> i want a vax-pe toolchain
<heat> PE is the cursedestest executable format ever
<heat> if vax qemu was a thing i'd totally port linux to it, for the shits and giggles
<heat> i don't want to bother with simh tho
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<geist> yeah simh is not as easy to work with
<geist> one of the neat features it does have is you can configure it to keep a circular buffer of the last N instructions it ran
<geist> pretty handy
<heat> oh that's useful for tracing
<geist> yeah that's pretty nice
<geist> and when you break into it with ^E it stops execution unlike qemu
<heat> i guess doing that with qemu is not as easy because of JIT?
<heat> the circular buffer, that is
<geist> yah
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<heat> actually.. huh, how does it know where the IP is, when running a JIT block?
<geist> it's encoded into the jit block presumably
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<geist> so it's implicit, in that the jit block was generated for that particular IP
<heat> but do they JIT for single instructions?
<geist> no they usually jit for a block of instructions
<geist> generally say a run of instructions until a branch
<heat> i was thinking that something like "test %rax, %rax; jnz 1f" -> "bnez x1, 1f" could provide some ambiguity on the IP's side
<geist> or even choose to jit across a branch not taken or something
<geist> you ca see qemu do it if you do `-d in_asm,out_asm` or something like that
<geist> there's another one in the middle that dumps the pseudo instructions
<geist> this is also what --single-step does to qemu, it causes it to jit a single instruction at a time, instead of a run
<heat> oh yeah i guess even enabling single stepping in EFLAGS needs to change how JITting works
<Ermine> how do they test vax stuff
<geist> well, simh emulates it just fine
<geist> and there's some vax hardware still around
<geist> i have some myself
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