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<mcrod>
hi
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<vai>
morning all
<klys>
gm. hello
<klys>
I had been trying to recompile japheth's jwlink for use with the hx-dos source tree, to no avail.
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<heat_>
geist, now you got me wondering
<heat_>
those same questions wrt JITting and knowing what the microarchitectural state is? those also apply to real hardware
<heat_>
like, if an x86 CPU fuses "cmp $0, %rax; jnz 1f" into a single macro op, and you get an interrupt. can you ever observe a uarch state between the cmp and the jnz
<heat_>
and what if you turn on single-stepping, do they stop fusing instructions?
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<nikolar>
ok so i added a syscall to unix v7 on pdp11
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<nortti>
what's the new syscall?
<Ermine>
epoll
<zid>
gog: I think I am LGBTQ, as long as the G stands for Grimace, the purple one from mcdonalds
<bl4ckb0ne>
the G stands for GUID
<gog>
zid: i can't pronounce htat word
<gog>
terrible fucking acronym
<zid>
That's because it isn't a word
<gog>
oh
<zid>
it's an initialism
<zid>
you're suppposed to say the letters
<zid>
like FBI
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<gog>
lasagna garlic bread time, quick?
<zid>
correct
<gog>
let's go be trashy, queen?
<zid>
lovely grimance, begone temptation, quack.
<gog>
that's nonsense
<nikolar>
the new syscalls is the answer , life and everything
<nikolar>
sorry, answer to life, the universe, and everything
<nikolar>
nortti: ^
<heat>
Ermine, kqueue!!!
<gog>
mmap
<gog>
wait did unix v7 have mmap already
<nortti>
no
<heat>
yeah no
<nortti>
I'd presume mmap came from 3bsd since it was the first unix with paging
<heat>
mmap came up in BSD when VAX
<heat>
there's a whole paper i linked here a bunch of times
<gog>
makes sense
<heat>
brk was getting too crappy for THE GREAT POWERFUL VAX
<gog>
praise VAX
<gog>
anti-vaxxers BTFO
<heat>
THE GREAT VACCINATION MACHINE
<gog>
yes
<geist>
VAAAAX
<geist>
vs3800: {2} uname -a
<geist>
NetBSD vs3800 1.5.4_ALPHA NetBSD 1.5.4_ALPHA (vs3800) #0: Sun Dec 10 19:31:01 PST 2023 root@vs3800:/usr/src/sys/arch/vax/compile/vs3800 vax
<geist>
ooho i should get irssi or something on this
<nikolar>
geist do you have a vax machine
<geist>
yes, many
<nikolar>
very nice
<nikolar>
hitch() {
<nikolar>
u.u_r.r_val1 = 42;
<nikolar>
}
<nikolar>
full source of the syscall btw
<heat>
SPARC
<nikolar>
SPARCV9
<geist>
i dont have my sparcs on righ tnow
<nikolar>
i want to get one
<heat>
do you have a parisc
<nikolar>
but there are none near me
<nikolar>
and shipping is ridicuouls
<geist>
yeah
<geist>
i do not have a parisc
<geist>
or a not mac based POWER, or an alpha
<heat>
BRUH
<nikolar>
guess we have to settle for emulators
<heat>
i was going to ask if you had all the architectures linux supports
<heat>
but it seems not :(
<nikolar>
are there even linux distros with sparc support
<nikolar>
i know it's in the kernel, but is anyone using it
<geist>
linux is piddlywinks compared to the POWER OF NETBSD
<geist>
in terms of running on things
<nikolar>
yeah netbsd is neat
<geist>
ansd yeah i tried to find a modernish sparc distro for linux but debian/etc seems broken
<nikolar>
netbsd it is then
<nikolar>
i installed it in qemu on sparc
<nikolar>
couldn't get openbsd to work
<nikolar>
so netbsd for the win
<heat>
gentoo at least?
<geist>
noice. y eah i have netbsd 9 on both my sparcstation 20 (sparcv8) ad a ultra 2 (sparcv9)
<geist>
heat: i guessi coulda tried that but i really dont have the time to rebuild the whole world on an old machine like that
<heat>
does netbsd actually get testing on their ports
<heat>
cuz according to dr. mjg, the answer is no
<heat>
but he's also biased
<nikolar>
not all of them i think
<nikolar>
but yes on sparc
<geist>
tje ultra 2 maybe, because it has a lot of ram, but something without much ram, even if you have the patience to let the compile run, modern C++ code would insta swap the world
<heat>
RUST
<mjg>
i'm not biased mofo
<nikolar>
kek
<mjg>
amd64 is defo being tested, past that looks very mixed baggey
<geist>
no i'm pretty sure you're right. unless someone reports a bug it'll probably not get fixed (and even then...)
<geist>
it's very much volunteer based. i saw on some mailing list that soemeone was actually doing some vax fixes the last cycle
<mjg>
now openbsd is used in "production" on bare metal sparcs
<mjg>
qemu is plausibly the one spot where it does not work ;)
<geist>
i was actually surprised to see that openbsd has someone more usage than net, according to the internets
<mjg>
that or you picked unsupported combo to emulate
<heat>
openbsd doesn't work in qemu?
<mjg>
i don't know who has bigger usage
<mjg>
i do know obsd has very dedicated users
<geist>
of the bsds it was somehting like freebsd 60, openbsd 30, netbsd 10. or something like that
<heat>
freebsd 60??
<mjg>
it definitely helps that their developers use it on their laptops
<heat>
this is wrong
<heat>
no one uses freebsd
<nikolar>
kek
<geist>
heat: within the bsds
<mjg>
no love for LulBSD or other flavor forks
<nikolar>
btw sparc64 is tier 1 arch on netbsd
<nikolar>
i imagine that means it's tested
<mjg>
it may be it is tested, but that's not what tier 1 guarantees in practice
<geist>
yeah it seems stable on my ultra 2
<geist>
i've rebuilt the kernel, stressed it out, etc. it's not crashy at least
<geist>
production ready? dunno, but it's at least somewhat stable
<geist>
so, there are no front lights for it, like there were on the earlier 70s ones (like a PDP 11/70)
<geist>
and it runs too fast anyway for it to matter, sic eit's at 15Mhz
<geist>
the lights would probably be a blur at that point
<nikolar>
no blinkenlights :(
<geist>
right so this is in a what looks like about 3U full length case. called a BA23. it came weith a front panel and plastic cover originally, but the one i have has nothing
<geist>
so it looks like a metal case with no front panel
<geist>
but all there is on the front is a power switch and a reset button anyway
<nikolar>
if it's not too expensive, i'd have something 3d printed
<bslsk05>
gunkies.org: BA23 Enclosure - Computer History Wiki
<zid>
even my cheap 2000s desktop was good steel, capitalism is a process by which sheet metal gets 4% thinner per year
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<nikolar>
my laptop is aluminium ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<geist>
https://gunkies.org/wiki/File:BA23_Power_Supply.png is basically what it looks like without the plastic case, except i have a metal top and bottom to it, so it's at least a solid thing i can put stuff on
<bslsk05>
gunkies.org: File:BA23 Power Supply.png - Computer History Wiki
<heat>
geist, how did the pdp11 support 1.5MB?
<heat>
did it have any sort of segmentation?
<nikolar>
yeah
<geist>
yes. PDP11s went up to 22bits, so 4MB of ram
<nikolar>
though each process had only 64kn if i remember correctly
<nikolar>
kb
<geist>
PDP11s have a kinda fixed style segmentation. basically there are 2 or 3 modes (user, supervisor, something else)
<nortti>
64K instruction + 64K data
<geist>
per mode, per I and D side there are 8 sets of registers, each corresponding to an 8KB region of the 64KB aspace (I and D are separate)
<geist>
the sets of registers describe base physical address + length + permission bits
<geist>
i forget what the granularity is, i think maybe 64 bytes
<nikolar>
32 maybe?
<geist>
so it's sort of like a pre 286 style thing, sort of a paging thing, since the 8KB regions are fixed, but they can be located anywhere in physical
<geist>
and yo ucan fault on them and whatnot
<geist>
also i think they can grow upwards and downwards
<nortti>
can you restart after a fault? that is, could one do demand-paging on pdp-11?
<geist>
yep
<nortti>
neat
<zid>
be a prety crappy mainframe otherwise
<nikolar>
unix v7 does swapping
<geist>
so that's why i was saying before yo ucan have up to like a 300KB binary on BSD 2.11, because it does something where A) data is a sepearate address space, so that gets you 128KB (64K I + 64K D)
<geist>
and B) you can specify one of the 8KB I segments to be swappable, like na overlay
<geist>
and the linker i guess generates thunks that let the process call into the kernel to swap one of the 8KB with another one
<nikolar>
geist: you're right 64b or 32 words
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<nikolar>
nortti: not sure, i was reading the code and saw some swapping stuff
<geist>
so basically i you generate more than 64KB of text it can spill it into a overlay segment
<geist>
i'm thinking that this is the origin of 'segmentation fault' since that's what these 8KB things are called in PDP11
<geist>
note that early PDP11s only supported 16 or 18 bit physical aspace, but the later ones (in the 80s) had the full 22 bit
<nikolar>
crazy for a 16b machine
<geist>
the IO region for devices only uses up like the top 8KB or something
<nikolar>
yeah i just read that
<geist>
fairly flexbile for a 16b machine, vs say a 64c186, which could go up to 24bits, but only did it in units of 64KB
<geist>
64c816 sorry
<nortti>
did the LSI-11s have full segmentation support?
<geist>
but then that cpu did it the way 8086 should have done it: have the segment just provide the top 8 bits of a 24bit address, instead of the weird, 16 bit shifted by 4 addition thing
<nikolar>
oh it's 6502 derived
<geist>
nortti: yes. this is an LSI-11
<nortti>
oh, okay
<nikolar>
thought it sounded familiar
<geist>
nikolar: yeah it's a 16 bit extension to a 6502. Apple IIgs, lots of consoles, etc used it
<geist>
it's pin compatible too in 8 bit form, and you can still buy new ones
<nikolar>
yeah 6502 has had a crazy long life
<nikolar>
and it's relatives
<sham1>
m68k!
<sham1>
But yeah, the 6502 is nice
<geist>
anyway in the simple form the PDP11 you could say have a 64KB binary that used say 20KB of text/data + say a stack growing from the top
<geist>
in that case you'd use the bottom 3 segments (8KB + 8KB + 4KB) to map the 20KB, and then a grow down segment in the 7th segment that expands as the stack faults
<geist>
and the kernel is basically heap style allocating segments out of the physical address space
<nikolar>
pretty neat
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<geistvax>
woohoo, got the vax on irc
<geistvax>
running ircII
<geist>
what was the command to get infos about the client?
<nortti>
ctcp VERSION
<nikolar>
kek alpha
<zid>
ircII 4.4Z NetBSD 1.5.4_ALPHA :ircii 2.9: AT&T you will (ojnk!)
<zid>
*what*
<nikolar>
VERSION
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<geist>
haha
<geist>
the 1.5.4 ALPHA is because i had rebuilt the kernel on the tip of the 1.5 tree
<geist>
FWIW
<nikolar>
almost correct
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<heat-onyx>
geistvax: helo
<nikolar>
kek heat had to do it
<heat-onyx>
i had to
<heat-onyx>
between my system and geistvax's there's like, 30 years
<geistvax>
yay
<geistvax>
i should move this over to another terminal so i can properly use it on a vt320
<nikolar>
now i need to get the pdp11 on irc somehow so i could say the same lol
<geistvax>
yah i was just thinking that, wonder if anyone ever made an irc client for BSD 2.11
<heat-onyx>
ofc
<geistvax>
there are of course other things to run on it, like RSTS or RSX-11 but i seriously doubt those had an IRC client ever
<heat-onyx>
worst case you can grab a crappy one like sic
<geistvax>
i only built the version of ircII that was in the pkgsrc from the netbsd 1.5 era. i should try something slightly newer like a mid 2000s bitchx or whatnot
<geistvax>
or i guess for lulz try something modern
<heat-onyx>
IRSSI!
<geistvax>
yah
<geistvax>
this vax is pretty capable, 32MB ram, but the main thing is it's just slow. only like 3 or 4 VUPs
<nikolar>
maybe even ii
<heat-onyx>
didn't you connect to IRC from lk once?
<geistvax>
so it's like... i dunno running a slow 486
<geistvax>
yah and i started to get an irc client going on LK
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<nikolar>
what's lk again
<geistvax>
yeah i meant i had it working from newos years ago. but started to get it working for LK
<heat-onyx>
nikolar: littlekernel
<nikolar>
ah fair
<nortti>
what, if any, relationship do newos and lk have with each other?
<geistvax>
heh i should jsut fire up the lkuser project, add a few syscalls to connect to a socket and then build a user space binary that connects to IRC
<heat-onyx>
ITT: geist loses his sanity implementing BSD sockets
<geist>
not much, newos very much followed the BeOS kernel api model. so it worked pretty similar to that, which is why haiku forked it for their project
<geist>
heat-onyx: nah i implemented a fair amount of it for newos back in the day
<geist>
for LK though i just wanted a little embedded thing that has at least fairly full featured threading support
<geist>
hence 'little kernel'
<geist>
i am not a very good namer of things
<heat-onyx>
geist: and you'd port it?
<geist>
port what?
<heat-onyx>
the BSD sockets layer
<heat-onyx>
from newos
<geist>
nah, the newos code is mostly from an earlier version of me, and has questionable style and whatnot
<geist>
enough that i'd maybe look at it, shake my head, and copy ideas
<geist>
that's what you get when you look at code you wrote like 25 years ago
<heat-onyx>
or 4 years ago
<heat-onyx>
feeling never changes ;)
<geist>
i think at the time i had implemented enough bsd to basically follow the general strategy of socket(), listen(), accept(), etc
<geist>
vs doing something different frmo that pattern
<geist>
and iirc i had it all routed through somehting like ioctls on top of /dev/socket, which would then mint a new dynamic FD for you, etc
<geist>
hey i thought it was pretty sophisticated at the time
<heat-onyx>
ew :(
<heat-onyx>
should've called it /dev/SocketFactoryFacade
<geist>
i think it was at least something like /dev/net/socket, maybe
<geist>
yeah it wasn't intended tha tyo udid anything with /dev/socke,t it was just an interface to ioctl on top of to get sockets interface
<heat-onyx>
hah that file is older than me
<geist>
vs adding raw syscalls for it. i wanted to reuse the machinery of devfs, which was an in kernel thig
<nikolar>
kek heat-onyx you scared me for a sec
<netbsduser>
i thought heat was 26
<nikolar>
turns out off buy a couple years
<heat-onyx>
i'm 21
<geist>
nortti: anyway long story short i wrote both of them, but they were both for different purposes
<geist>
newos kinda hit a dead end at some point where haiku forked it, started making huge progress, which frankly took the wind out of my sails
<nikolar>
hmm how hard would it be to add networking to unix v7
<heat-onyx>
hard
<nikolar>
or a hack that let's it use the host networking over serial or something
<netbsduser>
reassuring that the legendary best-in-class unbeatable scalability of solaris was at least remembered by someone half a dozen years my junior
<geist>
and then i started a new job that was much busier at the time, so then when i started doing osdev again, i was more into embedded stuff, sinc ei had worked with ARM for the previous few years
<geist>
and then i started doing more embedded stuff, hence lk
<geist>
and then that unexpectedly took off, so i still fiddle with it
<nikolar>
netbsduser: kek
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<heat-onyx>
netbsduser: the legendary Sun Microsystems engineering ethos will never be forgotten as long as i'm around
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<netbsduser>
heat-onyx: be sure to initiate a new apprentice into the order of the sun, that it might never set over the world
<nortti>
nikolar: you'd need to add poll / select (as there was no way to wait on multiple fds on v7) but otherwise you could potentially implement internet connectivity by running a slip client and simple tcp/ip stack in-process, connected over emulated serial to a slip server on host
<heat-onyx>
mjg: have you heard of our lord and saviour bryan m cantrill
<nortti>
nikolar: I'd possibly look at what ELKS is doing with their networking stack
<nikolar>
i was thinking the most basic thing through serial
<nikolar>
like let the host handle tcp/ip lol
<heat-onyx>
sounds like you need PROTOBUFS
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<nortti>
ah so similar to like what the wifi pseudo-modems for retrocomputers do?
<heat-onyx>
or
<heat-onyx>
SUNRPC
<nikolar>
heh
<nikolar>
nortti: sort of yeah
<nikolar>
much less work
<geist>
capnproto
<nikolar>
sun DOORS
<geist>
so there's some fun stuff with networking on the PDP11 and BSD2.11 it's there but it literally compiles a separate kernel that it context switches with
<geist>
since the kernel + networking cant fit in 64KB
<nikolar>
oh kek
<heat-onyx>
;_;
<geist>
so you have /unix and /netunix
<nortti>
lol
<nikolar>
nortti: though you might be right about poll/select, might be necessary
<heat>
testç
<geist>
i dont think it's necessarily a full context switch, to be fair, but it thunks between the two binaries
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<nortti>
I always presumed it was using the overlays system, that's amazing
<CompanionCube>
most bootleg 'microkernel'
<nikolar>
kernel modules then
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<geist>
the kernel + netunix + static data uses about 300KB overhead
<heat-onyx>
i don't understand what's wrong with my irssi but all !ASCII get transformed into astersks
<geist>
out of the 1.5 which leaves about 1.2MB free for user space
<nikolar>
ради
<heat-onyx>
fuck you too nikolar
<geistvax>
yeah those d
<nikolar>
ke
<nikolar>
kek
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<nikolar>
wonder why
<geistvax>
yeah those definitely do not get displayed properly on the vt320
<heat>
not even ç?
<geistvax>
not even that
<heat>
á?
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<nortti>
does the netbsd know about unicode?
<geistvax>
looks like A??
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<geistvax>
well, eve if it did, this is an ascii terminal
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<heat-onyx>
oh i think irssi uses LANG for locale autodetection
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<heat-onyx>
and i have LANG=C by default
<nikolar>
make sense
<sortie>
Curiously my default locale on Sortix is UTF-8
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<sortie>
nl_langinfo says UTF-8 if you ask
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<heat-onyx>
hmm let me try something
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<heat-onyx>
nikolar: can you type radi again?
<nikolar>
ради
<heat-onyx>
haha
<nikolar>
доес ит њорк
<heat-onyx>
C.UTF-8 actually switches something in musl's behavior
<nikolar>
thought musl didn't care about locale
<heat-onyx>
the "p" was getting all fucked up in LANG=C, re-launched with LANG=C.UTF-8 and it works perfectly
<bslsk05>
git.musl-libc.org: langinfo.c\locale\src - musl - musl - an implementation of the standard library for Linux-based systems
<nikolar>
interesting
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<heat-onyx>
i wonder if doing LANG=C and then manually forcing it to utf-8 just borked it
<heat-onyx>
*shrug*
<heat-onyx>
cuz i don't think musl treats UTF-8 differently?
<nikolar>
works now so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<heat-onyx>
sortie: isn't LANG=UTF-8 invalid?
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<sortie>
heat-onyx, I think C.UTF-8 is technically valid as an extension, but idk I'm the implementation so I decide. To be exact, LANG is unset by default in Sortix, so it's the default behavior when LANG is not set, and also the default behavior when setlocale is not called
<nikolar>
maybe you need C.UTF-8
<sortie>
Which isn't allowed but fuck you, UTF-8 has won
<sortie>
I.e. I'm *not* in LC_ALL=C by default before setlocale, but rather C.UTF-8
<nikolar>
is that even a thing
<nortti>
utf-12 support in sortix when?
<sortie>
nortti, where's the MR?
<heat-onyx>
sortie: "the implementation will decide your fate" "I am the implementation"