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<dbotton>
So now the Object Scope handles lists and multi value returns
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<jackdaniel>
if someone digs the implementation, they'd be surprised that block/tagbody are sometimes named variants of catch/throw
<jackdaniel>
i.e the expectation that block/tagbody does only static jumps is not entirely unreasonable
<jackdaniel>
and someone could expect that you can return from a block even outside of its dynamic extent, effectively requiring call/cc
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<beach>
Too many negations there I think. If the expectation that block/tagbody does only static jumps is "not entirely unreasonable", that means that that expectation is "somewhat reasonable", yes?
<hayley>
In the same way that "not bad" isn't quite good, I think.
<hayley>
Maybe? Maybe not. I think that statement doesn't hold now that I checked a dictionary.
<jackdaniel>
that's what I've meant: it _is_ somewhat reasonable to expect language to do less than common lisp does
<beach>
I know Baker wrote a paper about how various constructs in Common Lisp could be implemented using some other Common Lisp construct, but I don't see a reason why an implementation would choose to implement block/return-from or tagbody/go as catch/return.
<jackdaniel>
and there is another extreme, where someone may expect the language to do _more_ than common lisp
<jackdaniel>
catch/throw
<beach>
Right, sorry.
<beach>
Anyway, I'm lost, so I'll stop here.
<jackdaniel>
alright
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<beach>
I no longer know whether we are talking just Common Lisp or some other languages as well, and i no longer know who is expecting what.
<jackdaniel>
I see
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<gilberth>
Indeed. That you can return from a BLOCK at most once is a restriction that Common Lisp has. This might also be a surprise to some.
<gilberth>
As jackdaniel said, this leads to call/cc.
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<jackdaniel>
return-from/go that can't be optimized at compilation time is (from the implementation perspective) essentially the same thing as catch/throw
<jackdaniel>
assuming "medium" extent, and if we take "minimal" extent, then it is simply an error
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<gilberth>
You can have it either way. Take away CATCH/THROW and I roll my own using BLOCK/RETURN-FROM or the other way around. Take away both and TAGBODY as well and I'm at a loss.
<jackdaniel>
sure
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<mrcom>
You could use SIGNAL/handlers.
<jackdaniel>
you are aware how these are usually implemented?
<mrcom>
It's kind of odd. All these transfer-of-control operators waaaayy more involved that a simple GOTO,
<mrcom>
but you don't see the kind of spaghetti that GOTO seems to breed.
<mrcom>
In general, yeah. All kind of the same thing.
<beach>
mrcom: The book by phoe on how the condition system is implemented is worth reading. And the main takeaway (in my opinion) is that you need non-local control transfers, and if you have those, you can implement the condition system portably.
<mrcom>
It's longjumps all the way down :)
<beach>
As I recall, phoe tried to convince the webassembly people to specify such non-local control primitives and not specify exceptions.
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<mrcom>
I can image there was much horror.
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<beach>
I think he failed to convince them.
<beach>
So I guess this is yet another case of people going to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp, or even learning from how Common Lisp is made.
<mrcom>
Waxing philosophic, I think it's comforting to think of such operators as balanced sets.
<beach>
Er, what?
<mrcom>
It limits the scope.
<beach>
"it"?
<mrcom>
Being balanced--cacth, throw. Signal, handler.
<jackdaniel>
non-local control transfers are possible to implement in wasm by using the asyncify pass (that adds support for unwinding and rewinding the call stack)
* beach
is lost again.
<beach>
jackdaniel: Great! I was about to ask you the other day how you implemented those.
<jackdaniel>
it is somewhat iffy to use, but it gets the job done
<mrcom>
If all you have are gotos, then it's a wild west. Any line of Basic can jump to any other.
<mrcom>
A throw, on the other hand, has to be paired with a catch.
<jackdaniel>
that said I think that there exists a proposal for "real" non-local transfer control
<jackdaniel>
I don't know whether it was prompted by phoe, let me look for it
<beach>
That would be great if so.
<jackdaniel>
I can't find it easily, so it might be that I made it up
<gilberth>
If you look at WASM it makes for a surprisingly poor target for a compiler. Begins with that there is no GOTO.
<gilberth>
So coming from a CFG you need to find loops that you can express with while/break/continue.
<aeth>
Scheme won, kind of. Lambda ultimate goto and all.
<gilberth>
If you're unlucky, you end up with for(;;) switch(ip) { case 1: ... ip = 2; break; case 2: ...; ip = 42; break; ... } to simulate an instruction pointer (ip) or program counter.
<gilberth>
And this "relooping" is not exactly trivial.
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<gilberth>
And since there is no tail call elimination you can't even use that instead of GOTO.
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<gilberth>
I can kind of see why they made JS that way to discourage people from using goto (which is a silly restriction still). But WASM? It was meant as a target for compilers not for human to write.
<jackdaniel>
some issues with wasm are nicely summarized on this blog: http://troubles.md/ (WebAseembly Troubles Part 1 to Part 4)
<ixelp>
troubles.md
<gilberth>
PostScript would have been a better VM :)
<jackdaniel>
until you need unicode, then all hell would break lose
<jackdaniel>
not that sharing strings with js is anywhere near sanity
<gilberth>
It's surprisingly complete. You have non-local exit, and PS can generate PS at runtime, making it possible to implement proper closures.
<jackdaniel>
s/lose/loose/
<gilberth>
jackdaniel: I am talking about the language not their pick of a string data type. That's not important.
<mrcom>
I liked PS programming. Always thought it was a shame you could only run it on printers. (I was, alas, too poor to afford Display PS environments.)
<jackdaniel>
I was making a joke (unsuccesfully apparently!)
<mrcom>
I liked it :)
<jackdaniel>
unsuccessfully*
<mrcom>
Although tempted to veer off even further, and start musing about BASIC-to-sexp compilers.
<mrcom>
With tail-call elimination for GOSUBs.
<gilberth>
Ghostscript is surprisingly fast even. I once implement a toy Lisp in PS which compiled to PS (no Lisp interpreter present). This was a fun project.
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<cracauer>
How do I turn off all use of color in SLIME?
<hayley>
Lots of customize-face? Might be better to change the monitor settings at that rate.
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<cracauer>
That's what I am afraid of. Turning the monitor to monochrome won't work since some of the colors have way too little contrast between background and text.
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<Guest8>
Hello everyone, i would like to ask you for help
<Guest8>
I use SBCL with quicklisp installed and no extras in the init file. Recently i had issues when loading packages with ql:quickload. The error message is always the same.
<Guest8>
READ error during COMPILE-FILE:
<Guest8>
Lock on package SB-DI violated when interning DEBUG-VAR-INFO while in package
<Guest8>
DISSECT.
<Guest8>
The issue happens when the file ~/quicklisp/dists/quicklisp/software/dissect-20231021-git/backend/sbcl.lisp gets compiled. Specifically when compiling the function frame-locals. It has an issue with the reference sb-di::debug-var-info.
<Guest8>
Entering
<Guest8>
> sb-di::debug-var-info
<Guest8>
in the repl in isolation results in the same error "Lock on package SB-DI violated when interning DEBUG-VAR-INFO" so it can be called a minimal reproduction.
<Guest8>
I am out of ideas on how to fix this issue. I even tried to remove all CL programs including SBCL and quicklisp. Removing the cachefiles (~/.cache/common-lisp/ , ~/.cache/sbcl/) and ~/quicklisp/. After the reinstallation i had the same issue again, and i dont know how i caused this in the first place.
<Guest8>
Thank you very much. I dont get how i missed this when searching for the error message.
<scymtym>
the most likely reason is that one of SBCL and the dissect library was updated so that the currently installed versions are no longer compatible. the solution is probably to update the other one as well
<Shinmera>
you can also trivially find it if you just google "dissect common lisp"
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<pfdietz>
I prefer to stab common lisp billions of times.
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<Shinmera>
the acupuncture method
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<dbotton>
I take offense at that we acupuncture docs stab exact spots
<dbotton>
:P
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<dbotton>
"For example, CLOS supports a class redefinition protocol, a change-class protocol, and a mechanism to dump instances to a file and retrieve them." pg 57 CLOS Perspectives
<dbotton>
Anyone know what is meant by dumping instances?
<beach>
Well, it's not quite true. It can take an instance and save code to create a "similar" instance when the file is loaded. But the two won't be EQ.
<dbotton>
Is there a standard way to even do that?
<bike>
the second value handles initialization, i.e. filling the slots
<bike>
but it does this by referring to the literal instance, so it's not suitable for evaluation
<beach>
Right, that's a bit confusing.
<bike>
it's pretty tied in to the specific details of how compile-file works
<bike>
compile-file "dumps instances to a file" by calling make-load-form, compiling the resulting forms in whatever way, and putting that compiled code in the FASL so that at load time it can be run to recreate the object
<_death>
right, it's not a general mechanism for serialization.. but check out beach's clobber project
<bike>
make-load-form-saving-slots is a convenience function for writing your own make-load-form methods, and make-load-form is just for compile-file, so it won't help you much to call it yourself
<dbotton>
I cloned it
<dbotton>
_death I was curious about the claim from CLOS Perspectives
<dbotton>
that it already exists
<dbotton>
The book is employing something that I would think did exist
<dbotton>
a way to print a read able set of forms
<dbotton>
to recreate at least the slot data when possible
<dbotton>
employing/implying
<bike>
yeah, i mean it does exist, it's just not generally useful.
<bike>
you can of course use MOP to get all the slot values and stuff.
<dbotton>
right, certainly easy enough to write, just funny they implied was built into CLOS
<beach>
It is easy to print a set of readable forms, as long as the forms don't contain any object that is not externailizable.
<_death>
thinking about slots will lead you in the wrong direction.. better to consider how to re-create an instance and the information that it requires.. this is clobber's approach, so it uses readers and initargs
<dbotton>
Agreed for sure
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<dbotton>
_death thanks again for the book recommendation, enjoying so far, number of ideas
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<_death>
np
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<gendl__>
just got emacs/slime/sbcl running locally in Meta Quest 3 headset
<gendl__>
entire gendl actually, with ssl webserver
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<yottabyte>
nice!
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<fe[nl]ix>
what was Stavros Macrakis's ELS talk about ?
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<fe[nl]ix>
beach: did you attend that talk ?
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<tboros>
hello. to scrape a webpage for - i) .csv files, ii) tabular data - should I use something like lquery or is it simpler and sufficient to use regex? I suspect lquery is more helpful for the case of finding tabular data, but regex is perfectly good to locate .csv files
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<yottabyte>
when you decode json with yason, you get hash tables. is it best practice to just work with them or should you make them into objects by defclassing objects for them?
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<dlowe>
it can be really useful for model validation and serialization to create objects for them
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<dlowe>
it's also a lot of busywork so if this is a small non-library project, I wouldn't worry about it
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<skin>
tboros: My brother used to work for mozenda. They used a combination of Regexes and XPaths to create tabular data from scrape jobs.
<skin>
Oh, you mean finding csv files, not creating them.
<skin>
Still, I'd say the problem boils down to the same thing. I'd want xpaths under my tool belt if it were me.