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<yottabyte>
how can I see what's in the a package I've ql:quickloaded in emacs? I'm using slime
<yottabyte>
if I can see everything that's exported or even go to the source or to a function definition easily
<yottabyte>
I know I could find the package wherever quicklisp puts them
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<yottabyte>
there isn't a comma between these 2 array elements, can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong? trying to understand yason: https://pastebin.com/r76AzRnD
<ixelp>
(yason:with-output-to-string* () (yason:with-array () (loop for user in - Pastebin.com
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<beach>
yottabyte: You quickload a system, not a package. For a package, you can see what is exported by using MAP-EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS.
<hayley>
The lazy person version would be to type the-package-name: TAB and then a list of symbols appears.
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<josrr>
yottabyte: Within yason:with-array you must use yason:encode-array-element to encode each element of the array; https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/4336#4336
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<dbotton>
I really need to try and create some lexicon between the Lisp world and the Cish world, especially since they are rarely one to one terms either
<dbotton>
thanks for the patients
<beach>
Sure. "Cish"?
<yottabyte>
ty josrr (I think he's gone). so there's no way with yason where I can just take some arbitrary object, and just get the "best guess" at the json? it's largely a manual process like https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/4336#4336?
<dbotton>
C-ish, the non-Lisp world
<beach>
Oh, I see.
<beach>
That might be tricky, given the huge differences in most cases.
<dbotton>
agreed, had I have been a SmallTalk developer instead of an Ada and C++ developer I would have understood what Lisp meant by protocols more readily
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<dbotton>
but at same time the two (Lisp and Small talk) definitions still not the same
<dbotton>
or even the "protocols" added later to C++ or Jave
<beach>
Why is it important to translate terms between languages, rather than just using the terms of the language being used.
<beach>
?
<dbotton>
So that I can be understood :)
<pranav>
beach: I think having caveats would be more accessible for newcomers.
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<pranav>
Caveats about how the term is not to be confused with other usecases.
<beach>
I see.
<dbotton>
I tend to spend much time trying to say things correctly the Lisp way
<dbotton>
which is a good thing for sure
<beach>
dbotton: Of course. I just didn't see the need to relate to some other language in order to do that.
<dbotton>
just often there is a fear factor (a good fear) to ask a question
<dbotton>
beach, agreed however that is when one is Lisp from the ground up
<dbotton>
40 years if developing software and in many many language (and little time, I code between patients)
<dbotton>
means that you need a translator sometimes :)
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<dbotton>
(throw in a stroke and sticky fingers and gets more interesting)
<beach>
I see.
<contrapunctus>
I should note that in the very well-crafted German lessons of the Goethe Institut I attended, the teachers strictly avoided using non-German words or constructs to define/explain German ones...simply because learning languages in relation to each other would throw you off when the analogy inevitably no longer held.
<dbotton>
He is very right and why I am happy to get reminded my terms are off
<beach>
contrapunctus: Interesting. I was going to add that I am a lousy translator of natural languages, because my "RAM" contains one language at a time. I don't even see funny "false friends" between two languages I completely master.
<dbotton>
In time I will be fluent in Lispease
<dbotton>
There was an amazing German rabbi in the 1800s that did some incredible work on clear meanings of Hebrew by first throwing out the concept of borrowed terms that was priorly commonly used and redefining understanding the language using only Hebrew itself and classical literature in Hebrew
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<dbotton>
It had a huge impact (academically) in understanding questions on biblical texts, liturgy etc
<dbotton>
I wish I had spent time 20 years ago with Lisp even if left and came back to it again when I did
<dbotton>
but such is life
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<beach>
You are unfortunately not alone. Lots of people have invested decades to learn some language that they later discover is an inferior alternative compared to Common Lisp.
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<beach>
I was lucky to have the research group of Erik Sandewall in charge of teaching at the university, so I was exposed to Lisp (not Common Lisp though) early.
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<dbotton>
I also find it interesting how I bent over the years other languages to fit my needs into something more Lisp like
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<beach>
Right. As I often say "people go to a lot of trouble to avoid learning Common Lisp".
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<dbotton>
I would say people "people go through a lot to use Lisp without realizing that is what they are doing"
<dbotton>
:)
<_death>
the Paepcke book contains some chapters comparing CLOS to object systems in other languages (incl. C++ and Smalltalk)
<dbotton>
Probably only Lisp book I haven't read lol
<dbotton>
Will fix that this week
<_death>
nah, there are many ;)
<dbotton>
I doubt many, I own his work just never read it strangely
<dbotton>
Section III has the comparisons
<dbotton>
live and learn :)
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<dbotton>
_death the rest of the book would have also helped me much at the start.. thanks :)
<dbotton>
A "Thinking in" Lisp tutorial a good idea, I personally am not there yet
<ixelp>
death comments on Any literature comparing SELF and CLOS?
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<dbotton>
_death I think the reason I never spend time on it the time I was more interested just practical use of the language, my "next" pass through my library will be on theory / thinking, soon
<dbotton>
(sorry the poor wording/spelling.. should proofread myself better... bad habits)
<bjorkintosh>
dbotton: what does your lisp-brary look like?
<dbotton>
I grabbed more or less everything that was available, purchased and download, cut and scan etc. so that I have everything mobile and searchable
<bjorkintosh>
oh no pix?
<dbotton>
It has the advantage that when I put in my google drive Paepacke see his works and also a number of others that quote him etc
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<dbotton>
<gilberth> why sad? I would not have thought that was possible outside of a condition/exception. (showing my Pascal/Ada history)
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<gilberth>
Yes exactly, and that is the sad part. I mean that RETURN is lexically inside that BLOCK, why is it surprising that this works? It should surprise people when it doesn't.
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<gilberth>
Or put otherwise: It should surprise people that e.g. int *pair (int a, int b) { int res[2] = { a, b }; return res; } causes problems.
<dbotton>
I get you.
<dbotton>
Anyone have any ideas of what functionality one would like to see in a tool like my "Object Scope"