<skin>
13 responses so far! I'll remind y'all every ~8 days or so until July 27th if that's alright. Then I'll close it and write about it. Tell your friends, thanks again! I'm going to go eat dinner now. https://cl-survey-2024.djhaskin.com/
<ixelp>
Common Lisp Community Survey 2024
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<mrcom>
skin: We SLY'ians take great offense at your form.
<mrcom>
(Relegated to Other. Sniff.)
<mrcom>
Very web-serving-as-use-case.
<mrcom>
Is huchentoot really passe?
<mrcom>
Would suggest listing libs from awesome or cliki-suggested w/ checkboxes. Would be interesting to have "As recommended by aw/cliki (), another lib ()."
<skin>
mrcom: I have seen other people responding with sly and if they get a significant portion of the pie I'll put them on the form for next year and I'll report on them as if they weren't in the other category
<skin>
as I said before I'm learning a lot with this survey that I didn't know before because I don't even use Emacs for example
<skin>
it's always going to be rough the first go around but when I learn more about the community the survey will look better
<mrcom>
Yup.
<mrcom>
Maybe you should use this a a "what y'all think", and redo for this year?
<mrcom>
I'm not seeing a lot of interesting info as currently stands.
<paulapatience>
(I also use sly but I selected Emacs+slime)
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* mrcom
muses about what he'd like to learn from a survey
<mrcom>
Here's a hot button--library versioning. How many folks feel strongly one way or the other, how many of those are lib maintainers vs. users.
<mrcom>
How many subscribe to planet lisp?
<mrcom>
Tho Zach knows that.
<mrcom>
How many get Lisp info from HN, other places?
<mrcom>
How many Lisp developers do you know who aren't active in IRC?
<mrcom>
Any particular resources wish were available to expand Lisp usage at work/other.
<mrcom>
Interest in a Nor Am conference? (Maybe there's already some?)
<mrcom>
How did so many Lispers get so fluent at English as a 2nd lang? :) I'm always impressed by that...
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<zyd>
Are there enough academics in NA using Lisp for there to be a Lisp conference? It'd probably just turn into a Racket conference heh.
<mon_key_phn>
@zyd If Clasp is any indication yes.
<zyd>
Fair, forgot about it.
<Alfr>
mrcom, as this is CL, it'd be hard to read the spec otherwise. Thus, that might be a prerequisite?
<mrcom>
True, but everybody is *really* fluent. Idioms and everything.
<mon_key_phn>
@mrcom How's about a survey for how many CL folk would be interested in actively contributing to a modern LispOS built on a bare bones (and pinned) kernel linux/BSD . Im talking Editor, File Manager, Gui toolkit, Persistence System (with query and indexing), Browser, and whatever else a barebones modern Lisp Machine requires. Would be an excellent topic for a NA CL conference :-}
<gilberth>
Isn't having English reading competence a prerequisite for doing anything hacking related?
<mrcom>
mon_key_phn: Maybe picking up Mezzano & running with it?
<gilberth>
mon_key_phn: I'm not interested in a Lisp desktop. You're asking for a desktop again. I said that in the 90s and I say it still: If you want a LispOS go headless.
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<gilberth>
Start with writing a TCP/IP stack and use NFS for a file system and X11 for graphics.
<mrcom>
gilberth: Very clear-eyed and pragmatic. Not nearly so much fun, though.
<mon_key_phn>
@gilberth Something like that. Robertt Strandh has a white paper which would make a good starting point. Personally, Im thinking more along the lines of the admittedly rather grandiose Mage Project ...
<mrcom>
I'd like to do a CIFS server implementation in CL.
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<mrcom>
Reallly don't want to drink all the MS AD koolaid, and Samba has gone that route.
<mrcom>
I just want a file server my Mac will talk to.
<gilberth>
Besides times have changed. First of all the bar hangs higher these days. Begins with simple thing like rendering text. In the 90s it sufficed to place one bitmap next to the other. Today you may face yourself implementing OpenType, all the Unicode with its combining characters, bidi, and skin tone modifiers.
<mrcom>
Opaque blobs for device drivers...
<gilberth>
mrcom: That would be nice. But I would settle for an NFS file server written in Lisp. Macs talk NFS just fine.
<mon_key_phn>
@gillbrerh I understand the sentiment, but frankly the headless thing hasn't necessarily done much for promoting CL, orr CL community cohesion. In practical and industrially applicable terms i certainly agree with you that a headless system is probably more realistic. Still, it would be "real nice" it f the community could put something together that might run in a larger embedded footprint for the Thing of Things thing.
<mrcom>
gilberth:??? Was concentrating on MacOS dropping netatalk.
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<gilberth>
What also has changed is that Linux now has hacks to make web servers fast. A blazing fast web server could have been a killer application for a LispOS. We can run circles around UNIX because with Lisp we don't need context switches when scheduling. And we could design our I/O API so that less copying is done. UNIX copies all the time.
<mon_key_phn>
@gilberth webserver is the new X11
<mrcom>
Yeah, but the flip side is that any breakage in the web server compromises the entire box.
<mon_key_phn>
@mrcom Pijn it.
<mon_key_phn>
pijn \ pin
<gilberth>
mon_key_phn: I just cannot see how a LispOS could ever replace my desktop. Remote GUIs exist. Let me keep my desktop so that I can read a web page, deal with email, or view a PDF. I can then use whatever LispOS applications are there seamlessly with a remote GUI. My desk is tiny another console won't fit.
<gilberth>
mon_key_phn: HTML/CSS is the new NeWS.
<mrcom>
Sigh. An elegant tool for a more enlightened age.
<mrcom>
gilberth: And today is dumb day. I already have NFS, and a little web search turns up lots of recent instructions for setting up.
<gilberth>
Written in Lisp?
<mrcom>
Written in shell :/
<gilberth>
The NFS server?
<mrcom>
The commands to connect.
<mrcom>
Oh, no just standard Linux server.
<gilberth>
You just drop a line or two in /etc/auto_somehthing_mumble_mount_i_have_forgotten
<mrcom>
Wonder if it'll do v4?
<gilberth>
I run a user space NFS3 server. So: No clue.
<mrcom>
Although I'm not very happy with performance of the server. Not bad enough to figure out what's wrong.
<hayley>
"Yeah, but the flip side is that any breakage in the web server compromises the entire box." were capabilities
<mrcom>
hayley: In CL? Nope.
<gilberth>
I'd like to see a server written in Lisp so that you can tinker with it and make it do exactly what you want.
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<zyd>
Wouldn't think it matters much what language an OS kernel is written in. The idea of trying to duplicate the labor that has gone into the Linux kernel doesn't seem exciting.
<mrcom>
gilberth: Yeah, mount_nfs take 4 as a versoin.
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* mrcom
thinks hard about changing his nick.
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<gilberth>
zyd: It matters. Look at all the hacks that Linux needs to make web servers fast. And hacks the web servers have as well.
<ixelp>
Picotron Is a Fantasy Workstation | Hacker News
<gilberth>
Because of two things: Process isolation by means of address space separation. And UNIX being so copy-happy, that is a corollary of the former.
<gilberth>
But again this is not about a desktop.
<gilberth>
Heh, even Linux didn't manage to come up with something good in that department. And I personally have zero use for e.g. a file manager for I have a keyboard.
<zyd>
gilberth: I suppose I'd put it like this: in what world is a lisp kernel worth the loss of 99% of drivers? Would have to be a pretty special need and special OS for that to be worth. Just my user perspective
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<gilberth>
zyd: There aren't many driver that I would need: A driver for the network interface and a driver for the disk. That's it.
<gilberth>
Heh, even the CADR relied on file servers.
<hayley>
aeth: You can't necrocompute in here, this is the #commonlisp!
<gilberth>
Anyhow, I'm the wrong person to ask. I am not fond of the idea of having a LispOS anymore. Nor do I propose that. I was merely pointing out that IMHO the idea to come up with a desktop is more or less doomed to fail and a thousand times more unlikely to be practical than some thirty years ago.
<zyd>
careful, you might get lisp machine manuals thrown at you
<gilberth>
Which would illustrate my point.
<gilberth>
When I browse these I find zero mentioning of a web browser. Or a PDF viewer. Or even Unicode.
<gilberth>
So pretty much useless once you want to communicate with anyone.
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<aeth>
hayley: yes, nothing older than 1994 allowed... maybe make something that looks like Windows 3.1/95
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<mon_key_phn>
I was recently watching something on the computer history channel about X11 debacle snd how it was kind of doomed from the starrt because it was design by committee and there wasnt a reliable way to transport large source files over web and because X11 sources didnt get open sourced early enough to encourage robust developer feedback and pushback
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<mon_key_phn>
apropos of nothing except to say that basically modern GUi design pretty much died in the late 80s and we haven't really progressed on user computers... not necessarily so for edge devices but certainly the case for dedicated user computers that aren't phones, tablets, handhelds and embedded
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<mon_key_phn>
I genuinely wonder why the CL community doesnt just wrap its collective head around the OpenGenera sources floating around and start hacking at it until we can get it working on a modern kernel VM or otherwise and somehow get the damn thing running on a windowing system that isnt X11. Hell, at this point, just cobblint something up on OpenGL
<mon_key_phn>
would probably get pretty darn close to the feel of the Genera vibe.
<beach>
Genera is a proprietary system.
<beach>
Plus, Genera won't do very well on a network these days. It needs more security.
<mon_key_phn>
Despite the licensing issues and copyright bullshit around the cod, if everyone just hosed junks of it iacross 10-15 git repos and we were all hacking at it, it wouldn't even be genera code for very long. and if that all those repos got balled up into a packge system and a bukd script itd be hard to sue
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<mon_key_phn>
Like it's not even clear the current owner has full title to it or means to pursue it if he did
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<mon_key_phn>
or maybe im thinking about LMI
<beach>
I am personally not interested in doing illegal things. And it is not just about being sued.
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<mon_key_phn>
either way, the strategy of quicklisp and a big system packaging script that pulked in dependencies could get a crownd sourced modern genera running in my delusional moments if Lisp grandeur
<skin>
also gooey design didn't die in the late '80s. Microsoft continues to innovate here. it's just that everyone is annoyed with them when they do try to innovate
<mon_key_phn>
@beach I respect that
<skin>
no one likes the new stuff. ribbons? what happened to my menus? windows 11 why? I think they just nailed it in the early 80s and we've regressed since. at least in some sense
<mon_key_phn>
I have a hard time lately accepting that CL and the Lisp Machines didnt make it. Like genuinely sad.
<beach>
Lisp-specific hardware is no longer needed. Lisp works fine on modern processors.
<mon_key_phn>
@skin MS might be, but it's just not like the Lisp Machines in terms of the amount of Lisp was made accessible to frame not just the GUI but the introspection and immediacy all woth lisp. Emacs feels like sex with a condom compared to that.
<mon_key_phn>
@beech For sure, it's more the ethos of it and how it didnt get a chance to change/influence the direction of human machine interaction
<mon_key_phn>
It's not so much a technological lament as it is a cultural and experiential lament
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<mon_key_phn>
Like just reflecting on the basically 35 year period where intel and PC and windows coupled with so much C just significantly changed certain other possible trajectories which fell over because Darpa pulled up and some poor design decisions and bad businesses thinking that left the entire lisp space really vulnerable to an unfortunate loss of market share in terms of users becoming so accustomed to a certain particular way of
<mon_key_phn>
computing
<mon_key_phn>
christ thats a horrible sentence. ugh
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<beach>
mon_key_phn: Instead of complaining about the past, take up a project to improve the future!
<Lycurgus>
mon_key_phn: did you experience that period?
<Lycurgus>
i did and your perception of dates etc are off
<mon_key_phn>
im absolutely hoping to do so. Have been getting back into CL after a long hiatus. Been really examining and investigating what's the best way to out energy into that and how it might best move the dial towards something more along the lines of what I'd like that to look and feel like
<Lycurgus>
also it's the capitalism stupid
<mon_key_phn>
@Lycurgus: kinda, but with Amiga, commodore, Atari. I've played a tiny bit with the VLM thing.
<Lycurgus>
there's a vid where patrick henry winston sez as much but it's relatively scarcely expressed
<Lycurgus>
that sounds like a negative posed as a postive answer. I'm 70.
<Lycurgus>
i was computing professional in 1980
<mon_key_phn>
The late 80s was a much more interesting time in terms of UI/UX. it wasn't necessarily better but there was actually a lot more choice in terms of different PC type interfaces
<beach>
mon_key_phn: Feel free to ask about them if you want.
<Lycurgus>
thought so, thanks for confirming
<Lycurgus>
your perception of that period are distorted
<Lycurgus>
as far as the why, srsly, it's the capitalism
<Lycurgus>
production for exchange rather than use
<Lycurgus>
has a deep and utterly pervasive effect
<mon_key_phn>
@Lycurgus That's exactly it.
<Lycurgus>
and its (capitalism) character has substantially changed since 1980
<mon_key_phn>
@Lycurgus: Like i remember the context and the reality of that DARPA money and what it was propping up and i get that it was never meant to leave the lab
<Lycurgus>
the current blithering idiocy about "AI" couldn and didn when there was a more credible basis for it
<mon_key_phn>
and that it mostly boiled down to cheap chips monopoly and C
<Lycurgus>
simple minded pronouncements, saying that for ur growth
<mon_key_phn>
@Lycurgus: Im genuinely aghast
<Lycurgus>
fwiw, i began my professional career in DOD work
<mon_key_phn>
@Lycurgus: like, AI expert systems are and description logics were a thing
<beach>
zyd: You could contact the ALU and organize an ILC conference. There hasn't been one for quite some time, like 10 years.
* Lycurgus
has had his say.
<mon_key_phn>
@Lycurgus: I got no quarrel with DARPA
<mon_key_phn>
@Lycurgus: I just wish they'd left their money propping up the LMs
<Lycurgus>
production for exchange under odious social relations
<Lycurgus>
naively engaged in by successively discarded IT generations generally lasting (stayin in doing IT roles) a decade or less
<mon_key_phn>
@Lycurgus: i look at what the AI we have is being used for and Im genuinely upset that commerce has driven it. Id much rather it be spooky NSA surveillance than Facebook
<Lycurgus>
well the attrition rate might be a lil longer
<Lycurgus>
why be upset?
<mon_key_phn>
@Lycurgus: we're definitely drinking the same exact kool aid
<Lycurgus>
it's nuthin but opportunity
<Lycurgus>
the dolts are clueless
<mon_key_phn>
it's seriously shaped the culture. it colors all aspects of all of our lives at every level. the c, the Intel monopoly, the trajectory of computing and how it's evolved
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<zyd>
wishing for the capitalism of the 80s, or capitalism where Lisp is more popular wont do anything about it
<Lycurgus>
the reason for the IT generation turnover is the same as why the corporatists will never succeed at "AI", it's the same issue
<zyd>
beach: neat projects
<Lycurgus>
zyd who said anything about wishing
<mon_key_phn>
Yeah but thats a lot of juice getting burrned uo to sell soap
<Lycurgus>
even fucking knowing is a huge leap for the current pervasive cluelessness
<mon_key_phn>
IOW twnsor math takes electricity
<mon_key_phn>
tensor
<zyd>
Lycurgus: mon_key_phn has expressed a lot of nostalgia, what I wrote was in reference to that
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<mon_key_phn>
@zyd iit comes of as nostalgia m, bit Lycurgus is onto what im saying. It s a political hermeneutical lament actually
<beach>
zyd: Thanks.
<beach>
mon_key_phn: I suggest moving this discussion to #lispcafe.
<Lycurgus>
or #lisp
<Lycurgus>
which is why the name of this one was changed when libera formed
<Lycurgus>
per my suggestion iirc
<mon_key_phn>
ok
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<metsomedog>
is there a way to match "anything" with a #- expression, such that that s-expression is never compiled?
<beach>
#+(or) is what is mostly used.
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<beach>
But #-(and) would do the same.
<metsomedog>
thanks, that works
<beach>
Sure.
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