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<thuna`>
gilberth, yitzi: I was more considering that non-nil ABORT would imply the undoing of operations done on the stream the synonym stream points to (possibly limited to operations specifically done through the synonym stream), which would imply calling CLOSE on the stream it points to
<gilberth>
To me this doesn't make too much sense. When I make a mere synonym stream, a broadcast stream, or an echo stream I don't "own" the underlying streams.
<gilberth>
I mean, someone else created the underlying streams and that someone else should bother to close it again. Further I consider it odd to close a stream twice. So the other someone who made the underlying stream must be aware.
<thuna`>
gilberth: Maybe I am not fully understanding the implications of ABORT. If CLOSE is called with non-nil ABORT, then the goal is roughly to do certain operations such that the state is as close as possible to the state at which the stream was created, no? Under this interpretation, aborting a composite stream should undo the modifications to its component streams as well.
<thuna`>
Of course, I don't expect any implementation to actually do it; it would be too much and the standard allows not actually following through on ABORT.
<gilberth>
It's a kind of modularity issue. Suppose you have a function OPEN-FOO-DESTINATION and some code that says (WITH-OPEN-STREAM (OUTPUT (OPEN-FOO-DESTINATION) ...), this OPEN-FOO-DESTINATION now longer has the option to just give e.g. a synonym to *standard-output*.
<gilberth>
I think the spec is pretty precise here. "If abort is true, an attempt is made to clean up any side effects of having created stream."
<gilberth>
When you say (make-synonym-stream '*standard-output*) you have not created *standard-output*.
<gilberth>
You created the synonym stream. And :abort would attempt to clean up side effects. Side effect beyond consing that thing was none.
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<thuna`>
Ah, I think I did misunderstand ABORT. I was going off of the example of deleting a created file and not superseding an existing file but I read that as the general "undoing the effects of the stream" whereas those are things that creating the file stream itself does, in a sense.
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<mrcom>
gilberth: I believe ABCL top-level macros will cause trouble for meall.
<mrcom>
It is, in effect, treating them as special operators.
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<mrcom>
Rather than emitting "(eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (do-magic-forward-decls-etc))" it's directly executing do-magic-.... when it expands the top-level macro.
<gilberth>
mrcom: Sure, I only have to write templates for those. And it makes sense for I only tested with non-top-level forms. The intended purpose. And thanks for looking at meall!
<gilberth>
do-magic- ?
<mrcom>
e.g. (EVAL-WHEN (:COMPILE-TOPLEVEL) (SB-C:%COMPILER-DEFUN 'FOO T NIL NIL))
<gilberth>
That's SBCL not ABCL, isn't it?
<mrcom>
Yes, that's well-behaved expansion.
<mrcom>
ABCL has the same kind of stuff, of course, but the macro expansion directly executes its equiv of %COMPILER-DEFUN.
<mrcom>
Totally destroyed my own secret-agent tricks with *macroexpand-hook* :(
<gilberth>
All I get is NAMED-LAMBDA breakage. Let me start ABCL with SLIME.
<gilberth>
This named-lambda is beyond me. Why, oh why, not just (declare (function-name foo)) ?
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<gilberth>
Everyone has his own variant of named-lambda.
<gilberth>
Oh, SLIME doesn't work for me.
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<gilberth>
Ah. It's a special function name again. I find this rude, the spec doesn't say it is ok unlike with private special forms.
<gilberth>
meall says "We weren't caught?". A pity.
<gilberth>
mrcom: Thanks for pointing me to this. I'll figure it out.
<mrcom>
It's in compile-file.lisp, starting with (defun install-toplevel-handler). DECLARE, DEFCONSTANT, DEFGENERIC, DEFMACRO... EVAL-WHEN... EXPORT IMPORT... lots of stuff.
<mrcom>
Some of them are specials.
<gilberth>
We must be looking at different ABCLs. I have breakage with their named-lambda. SLIME isn't working for ABCL here which makes hacking awkward.
<mrcom>
This piece of source has been pretty much untouched since 2012. Let me try re-pulling...
<mrcom>
No, up-to-date.
<mrcom>
And this is just for compiling. Don't know what the interperter does.
<gilberth>
Oh. Maybe I need to put meall.lisp under version control.
<mrcom>
You know, we were making fun of somebody recently talking about pinned versions of libraries. But suddenly seem to keep running into problems because of (lack of) it.
<mrcom>
(Well, not making fun of really. Expressing reservations about need for.)
<gilberth>
I don't need pinned versions I need an ASDF that makes it easy to just load libs from where I wanted them to be loaded from :-)
<bike>
extended function names seem easier to deal with than extended special operators
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<gilberth>
mrcom: Huh. DEFUN macro expands by itself? When I say (cl:macroexpand '(defun foo (x) (incf x))) I see INCF expanded.
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<gilberth>
bike: I would object. Begins with there is no SPECIAL-FUNCTION-NAME-P.
<bike>
i mean, if you're walking code, you can just see whatever in a FUNCTION form and go "oh, i guess that's a function name". but with an extra special operator you have no hope of proceeding without knowing the particulars
<bike>
you're right about the declare function name thing, by the way. works fine in clasp. i don't know what the point of named lambda is.
<gilberth>
bike: If it were so easy.
<gilberth>
It appears that with ABCL #'(sys:named-lambda foo (x) ...) really is already fully macroexpanded.
<gilberth>
The ECL variant #'(lambda-block foo (x) ...) is not fully expanded yet.
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<gilberth>
So it is not a mere funny function name. In neither case it is.
<gilberth>
A coder walker may want e.g want to know which variables are read or written.
<bike>
oh, sorry, i was thinking more like sbcl's ctors, where it's genuinely just a name. not a different kind of lambda expression.
<gilberth>
Yes, a funny name like #'(FOOATOR BAR) would be fine.
<gilberth>
Makes me wonder if this (SETF FOO) is related to ancient DEFUNs which would deposit a property when you say (defun (foo bar) (x) ...). But perhaps just a coincidence.
<bike>
mhm. like i said, i don't get named-lambda. too disruptive, and for what purpose?
<bike>
you can get most of the way there with a named-lambda macro that expands into labels, anyway. pretty sure that's in alexandria or somesuch
<mrcom>
Yeah, that's more-or-less what built-in macroexpand-all shows. Notice no "(eval-when").
<mrcom>
In their (process-toplevel-defun (...)) :
<gilberth>
So where does the eval-when come from that you see?
<mrcom>
I don't. They don't do that. Instead of the macro expansion cleanly emitting eval-when code, it just goes ahead and directly executes it.
<mrcom>
For example, in process-toplevel-defun, there's this section at the bottom:
<mrcom>
;; If NAME is not fbound, provide a dummy definition so that
<mrcom>
;; getSymbolFunctionOrDie() will succeed when we try to verify that
<mrcom>
;; functions defined later in the same file can be loaded correctly.
<mrcom>
(setf (fdefinition name) #'dummy)
<mrcom>
(unless (fboundp name)
<mrcom>
(push name *fbound-names*)))
<mrcom>
So they're binding a (dummy) definition to the symbol when the defun is processed, rather than expanding to code which will be executed at load-time.
<gilberth>
Hmm. And how did you get meall:macroexpand-all into that process?
<mrcom>
If meall:macroexpand-all attempts to completely exand, e.g., (defun ...), at the toplevel, it will miss the magic stuff that's being directly handled by the compiler's expansion of defun.
<gilberth>
Ah, I see.
<gilberth>
So technically meall isn't breaking, it just expands too much or something that this hack of process-toplevel-form won't recognize a DEFUN anymore?
<mrcom>
No, technically ABCL is messing up.
<gilberth>
Good. And thanks.
<bike>
the macroexpander has side effects? argh...
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<mrcom>
Yeah.
<gilberth>
I am starving, it is late and I really better hurry eating something to not upset my fragile sleeping pattern too much.
<mrcom>
Feed the body, feed the mind.
<gilberth>
mrcom: We talk again. Maybe we can figure out what happens.
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<mrcom>
bike: From Clasp, SBCL, ECL, CCL, I've learned lots of ways I can mess up snooping on definitions. Unfortunately, from ABCL I only learned how *they* can mess up.
<mrcom>
I'm not saying anything about other aspects of the codebase, just the little corner I ran into.
<mrcom>
(Haven't figured out what Clisp is telling me yet...)
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<bike>
well, let me know if clasp is doing anything stupid for me to correct
<bike>
i've tried to cut out all our weird special operators to make code walking possible
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<mrcom>
No, the only problem was the one you helped with, which was my problem.
<mrcom>
Everything's working much better than I deserve. When the spec says "thou shalt not shadow standard stuff or, like, directly execute standard function bindings" (CLHS 11.2.1.1.2),
<mrcom>
which I do, it's kind of nice that several different implementations work perfectly for my purposes.
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