jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<jeosol> jcowan: congrats. leaving a job is never easy. Most who are there see you are a traitor. It can be a difficult experience. For some others, it can be worse. I have heard of people's badge and laptop access being disable the moment the give notice.
<jcowan> In this case they gave me notice
<jcowan> basically AT&T runs out of money every August and lets go a lot of contractors, and then hires a new set (or the same set, whichever) in January.
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<asarch> How can you create '(a . (b . c))?
<ultralitsun> just like that?
<ultralitsun> (cons 'a (cons 'b 'c)) ?
<asarch> That gives: (A B . C)
<ultralitsun> so does '(a . (b . c)) though
<ultralitsun> [4]> '(a . (b . c))
<ultralitsun> (A B . C)
<Bike> (tree-equal '(a b . c) '(a . (b . c))) => T
<Bike> (foo . (whatever...)) = (foo whatever...)
<ultralitsun> ^
<asarch> (eq '(a b .c) '(a . (b . c))) → NIL
<Bike> Sure, they're different conses
<Bike> (eq '(a . (b . c)) '(a . (b . c))) => NIL in my implementation
<Bike> try looking around with car and cdr to find a difference
<Bike> (you won't) (they're the same structure)
<ultralitsun> what's wrong with tree-equal?
<ultralitsun> equalp will also tell you they're the same, asarch
<ultralitsun> :)
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<asarch> (eq '(a . b) '(a . b)) → NIL
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<asarch> I was reading Land of Lisp and it says that '(a . b) at some point is better than '(a b) because it saves memory
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<asarch> So in a big app setting settings a la '(foo . (bar . baz)) could improve memory usage
<hayley> It does, but for a large application I'd rather use a structure or a class, which will save memory, because the "keys" are stored in the class.
<White_Flame> it's only 1 word per list
<White_Flame> hmm, 2 words. But that's my final offer!
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<asarch> And since I am writing the CRUD generator for my web app, I was thinking to use that for the type of the column in the model
<asarch> I see
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* hayley continues waiting for CDR coding revival
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<thomaslewis> (a . b) is one cons cell. (a b) is two (a . (b . nil))
<beach> Good to know.
<thomaslewis> Was answering asarch from 20 mins ago.
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<asarch> Thank you, thank you very much :-)
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<ultralitsun> is there an ansi common lisp way to tokenize a string into a list of strings?
<ultralitsun> '("aug 19 1991") => '("aug" "19" "1991")
<ultralitsun> ?
<ultralitsun> for example
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<asarch> How do get a ( or a ) as a symbol?
<beach> ultralitsun: There is a library called split-sequence that is frequently used.
<beach> asarch: You just type the letter.
<beach> Oh, the parentheses.
<beach> |(| and |)|
<asarch> Thank you!
<beach> asarch: I recommend you draw the box diagrams of those lists you mentioned before.
<beach> Then you will see that (a b . c) and (a . (b . c)) have the same structure.
<asarch> How do you do the draw?
<beach> I am not sure how to answer that. It is one of the first things you learn to do when you learn Lisp.
<hayley> The library draw-cons-tree is useful if you have no artistic talent.
<asarch> I remember a program from the book
<asarch> (a . b): a←| | |→b
<beach> You draw a box with two parts, each part representing a slot, i.e., the CAR slot and the CDR slot.
<beach> asarch: The other thing you can do is to try (car '(a b . c)), (car '(a . (b . c))), (cdr ...), (cadr ...), (cddr ...)
<beach> masinter: Oh, thank you.
<masinter> About 8,080,000 results (0.45 seconds)
<ultralitsun> asarch: which book are you learning lisp from?
<ultralitsun> "Land Of Lisp" is very cartoonish, but it has a lot of "good" drawings otherwise
<ultralitsun> especially regarding the elementary stuff
<ultralitsun> beach: I saw the libraries, but I was wondering if there was a secret trick I didn't know about yet
<beach> I strongly recommend against using that book for learning Common Lisp.
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<beach> ultralitsun: I don't think there is. I think everyone is just using SPLIT-SEQUENCE.
<ultralitsun> I hardly remember the book, I read it about 10 years ago
<ultralitsun> I just remember there being plenty of visualizations
<ultralitsun> oh darn beach you're right, now that I'm seeing this list of complaints
<beach> And that's just the first few chapters. I haven't finished the book yet.
<ultralitsun> critic for the critic, provide a citation
<ultralitsun> like for that first one about the myth of case insensitivity, just link to here http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw51/CLHS/Body/23_ab.htm
<ultralitsun> sorry, wrong one https://www.cliki.net/case%20sensitivity
<beach> Well, doing this stuff is not my main work, so I have to limit the time I spend on it.
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<asarch> Believe it or not, I am using a Haskell tutorial to learn Common Lisp.
<masinter> In Common Lisp, symbol names can be arbitrary strings
<asarch> I mean, when you compare the two programming languages you can see things that usually don't see
<masinter> WHY is it not allowed to have a symbol whose name consists entirely of .
<masinter> so that .. and ... won't intern
<beach> masinter: What makes you think it is not allowed?
<masinter> unescaped, it's a READ problem not intern
<masinter> sorry
<masinter> what's the easiest CL to install on a x86 windows with WSL?
<masinter> or is there a docker image already set up
<ultralitsun> I thought about publishing one since I use it in docker all the time now
<masinter> interlisp/medley
<ultralitsun> I've been using clisp 2.49 still
<ultralitsun> looks like plenty of people pushed clisp images
<ultralitsun> jess/clisp was updated yesterday
<ultralitsun> but you could quickly write your own Dockerfile to USE an official alpine/debian/ubuntu image, then RUN apk install clisp etc.
<ultralitsun> I was at dockercon a few months ago and they were telling people to watch out regarding non-official images
<masinter> we set up automatic creation of docker images when we do a 'nightly', to update online.interlisp.org
<ultralitsun> do you push them to the hub?
<masinter> yes
<ultralitsun> oh interlisp/medley right
<masinter> i think that's wrong tho
<ultralitsun> I'm not familiar with interlisp
<ultralitsun> is it GUI-centric?
<masinter> it's an XCL window to start
<masinter> Xerox Common Lisp (circa 20 years ago)
<masinter> the online edition is friendlier, the docker edition has been neglected
<ultralitsun> I kept trying to run gtk programs (emacs, eclipse) within docker containers, and had stability issues
<ultralitsun> with Xquartz on macos and on linux, too.
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<masinter> stability requires constant vigilence
<ultralitsun> I didn't even troubleshoot it
<ultralitsun> there's a way to disable the NAT/ip masquerading, maybe that would help
<masinter> we run on macs with quartz
<ultralitsun> I don't think I tried ssh-tunneling into the contain to run the x-clients
<ultralitsun> I don't think I tried ssh-tunneling into the containers* to run the x-clients
<masinter> it turned out to be more stable to run Xvnc in the container
<masinter> then run a vnc client instead of an X server on the machine with the monitor
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<masinter> online.interlisp.org runs lisp on an AWS insstance and noVNC client in the browser
<ultralitsun> fancy
<ultralitsun> I was just messing around but thought it'd be neat if it was "seriously possible" to "run everything in docker"
<masinter> we set up a non-profit and are taking donations to keep it running, but so far the AWS charges are minimal
<ultralitsun> did you compare the costs to oracle?
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<masinter> well, AWS offerss $1k credit to non-profits
<masinter> per year
<masinter> which should cover us with people just playing
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<ultralitsun> wow this is new to me
<ultralitsun> I logged in as a guest
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<ultralitsun> I feel like I'm in a museum
<masinter> if you make an account we'll keep your files
<masinter> it's intended as a museum exhibit
<masinter> live
<ultralitsun> is there a reason it's using west coast time?
<masinter> it didn't immplement time zones
<ultralitsun> oh it says it's 00:07 right now
<masinter> the machine it's running on is in ohio
<ultralitsun> idk says it's 13-aug-2022 00:07
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<masinter> yes
<masinter> that's right isn't it?
<ultralitsun> that's not the time in ohio
<ultralitsun> might as well make it UTC lol
<Shinmera> Can we get back to Lisp, thanks.
<masinter> try (eval 'il:|\\TimeZoneComp|)
<masinter> (setf il:|\\TimeZoneComp| 5)
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<ultralitsun> yeah that did it
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<masinter> 'night all
<ultralitsun> thanks for the interlisp tutorial masinter
<masinter> i used lower case setf instead of SETQ to stay within the group's limits
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<contrapunctus> I've defined a macro similar to `defclass`, except it accepts an additional option. This option accepts multiple forms with a common grammar...is there any way to get tools like eldoc to display hints for this grammar?
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<masinter> minion: registration, please?
<minion> The URL https://gitlab.common-lisp.net/users/sign_up?secret=a08ec88f will be valid until 16:15 UTC.
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<jcowan> hayley: We don't need no stinking revival! Medley uses CDR-coding because it has a fixed limit on usable memory (and even that is much bigger than the largest possible D-machine)
<masinter> CDR-coding was for when RAM was expensive
<masinter> i don't know why sybalsky increased the VMem size from 64m to 256m and kept cdr-coding
<jcowan> Too hard to rip it out, maybe?
<masinter> no, you could just have done (DATATYPE CONS (CAR POINTER) (CDR POINTER))
<masinter> or maybe LISTP instead of CONS
<jcowan> And then you have to rebuild the image from scratch, which until recently we couldn't do, no?
<masinter> THey knew how to build new images, it's just things changed and we didn't really start with a clean delivery of a working system
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<masinter> "software archeology" -- the pottery was in shards
<masinter> i had "Software Archeologist" as my title for a while
* jcowan chuckles
<jcowan> reminds me of the job titles at Xanadu
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<White_Flame> I wonder how many of those were self-selected
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<masinter> probably all of them
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<jcowan> Speaker-to-Bankers is definitely a Larry Niven allusion
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<yitzi> jcowan: And like the animals the Bankers always win?
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<jcowan> So it seems
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<qhong> question: is mutating &rest arglist portable?
<hayley> From memory it interacts poorly with APPLY.
<qhong> is it specified?
<hayley> Somewhere, but I forgot where.
<White_Flame> "The value of a rest parameter is permitted, but not required, to share structure with the last argument to apply."
<qhong> oops
<qhong> rnrs vibe
<qhong> White_Flame: thanks
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