Werner changed the topic of #armbian to: armbian - Linux for ARM development boards | www.armbian.com | Github: github.com/armbian | Commits: #armbian-commits | Developer talk: #armbian-devel | Forum feed: #armbian-rss | Off-Topic: #armbian-offtopic | Logs: -> irc.armbian.com
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<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> Is the mango pi riscv board worth buying? or would buying a similar priced arm board be more worth it?
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<archetech>
n2 or n2l
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> i was thinking of getting the orange pi zero
<archetech>
id want more power for my money than small size
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> the n2 and n2l is more expensive
<archetech>
n2 l would stomp any pi for $
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> what pi your talking about? orange pi or raspberry?
<[TheBug]>
answer is most likely, use most similar fex
<stipa>
what's about that 16GB board with a new rockchip?
<archetech>
and I dispise old tech purch just to save $
<archetech>
short sighted
<Armbian-Discord>
<c0rnelius> archetech, depends what ur looking for. If going headless, those h2/3's work just fine and the cost minimal. the h5s are also nice.
<stipa>
archetech: you're such a downer
<archetech>
I know arm so too bad stipa
<archetech>
mostly junk toys
<stipa>
android works ok on them
<stipa>
i read an article a moment ago about sub 4nm intel stuff
<archetech>
dont get me started on android I dispise google
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<archetech>
intel could wipe arm off the earth if they chose to
<archetech>
in sbc land
<stipa>
by what i read they will since they want int omobile market
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<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> Yeah headless 512mb is fine unless more ram is needed
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> h3 droid would not work on the orange pi zero because there is no display output
<Armbian-Discord>
<TheBug> It supports output over cvbs if it has analog output on it, however, I cant remember what pi zero supports without looking it up
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<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> Hmm that might work though that is stupid and annoying
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<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> @nekomancer: because by definition: "data structure describing the hardware components of a particular computer so that the operating system's kernel can use and manage those components, including the CPU or CPUs, the memory, the buses and the integrated peripherals."
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<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> thats what a dtb is
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> the devicetree
<quietschie>
IgorPec, this doesn't seem to be the right contact as they especially state that there is no technical support (...for community inquiries, not for technical consultation or technical support!...)
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> "For business consultation, please click here and choose to schedule a paid consultation!"
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> "If you are wanting to contact us about becoming a Platinum Partner, please fill out this form."
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> "Need an quick answer about a question?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> Subscribe to our forum at the Community Supporter tier or above and you will get access to our private pay-per-post forum where we will or a member of the community will get you a response to your inquiry with-in 48 hours."
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<quietschie>
i was looking for help and not for payd support :(
<nekomancer[m]>
<Armbian-Discord> "<Tenkawa> @nekomancer: because..." <- so, who knows what is inside device? who can to make it? shouldn't it be adevice creator?
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> They aren't "universal" though by os/version... and why would say "Samsung" want to support DTB's for "LG's" hardware for their computers?
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> for peripherals
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> etc
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> that defeats the point
<c0rnelius>
nekomancer[m]: the kernel is in flux, so you wouldn't want the dtb to be embedded unless you didn't plan to ever up date the kernel or planned on only allowing the manufacturer to do it. in which case they would have complete control.
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> @c0rnelius that too..
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> Why not just have uefi/bios for arm?
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> like x86 does it because no one supports my random windows tablet but it boots latest distro
<Armbian-Discord>
<c0rnelius> ARM does not have a BIOS
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> yeah there is no bios but if random intel device does not need a dtb then what stops arm from being similar?
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> They do if used on an arm SoC
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> you can't just plug them in and go
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> The drivers have to be ported like anything else
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> yes, the DTB ought to be provided by the vendor, and it ought to simply describe the hardware, and let the kernel's drivers use that info to control the system
<Armbian-Discord>
<c0rnelius> a dtb can also be embedded into the u-boot binary.
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> But because there's not a great central repo of DTB, linux becomes the repo.
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> And u-boot clones from the linux repo
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> @ManoftheSea thar is not practical and you know it
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> what isn't?
<Armbian-Discord>
<c0rnelius> so in theory you could just use the one in the u-boot bin, but if something changes on the kernel level then you have a problem there.
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> nor would it ever be kept secured/maintained
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> That the company that makes a SoC might have a DTB describe the SOC, then the board manufacturer extends that with what is actually broken out on the board, and that would be written into a repo with the canonical device-tree-source for the board?
<Armbian-Discord>
<Tenkawa> Not that the vendors do a good job of it now....
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> what "something changes on the kernel"?
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> If dtb says "I have a 555 timer here", it doesn't matter if the kernel gets an update to the 555 initialization routine
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> The "bios" is a "platform firmware", which does initialization of the hardware. In our boards, that's u-boot, which then provides the UEFI interface for Linux to boot and the DTB for linux to know what hardware exists. Intel doesn't use dtb because it uses ACPI, a table of things that describe hardware.
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> acpi is better because its not tied to what is installed on the disk
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> That's a nonsense statement.
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> You can see this hierarchy when you look at the marvell area of the linux dts's:
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> armada-3720-espressobin.dtsi includes armada-372x.dtsi includes armada-37xx.dtsi
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> espressobin is a board that extends the pinout of the 3720 chip, which itself is a given implementation of the 37xx hardware. While the 3740 never existed, it could have been a 4-core version. So, you'd expect marvell to provide the bindings for their soc, and the board manufacturer to extend that with hardware on the traces on the circuit board
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> Now, ACPI is part of other platform firmware, but "on disk" or not is nonsense. The u-boot for my ebin is in SPI flash, not "on disk".
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> The ACPI for an intel chip is going to be on some connected eeprom, too.
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> then put the acpi on the spi flash
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> not every device has spi flash though
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> that's just not what arm does.
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> except when it does, I guess
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> if arm does not have acpi but it can then there should be change
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> why?
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> They had this discussion in... 2012? 2014? And decided DT was better.
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<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> for what reason is it better?
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> I dunno
<nekomancer[m]>
<Armbian-Discord> "<Tenkawa> The drivers have to..." <- driver ≠ dtb, dtb ≠ driver. pc world have a way for os to scan hardware and get a knowledge about hardware about from middle of 90x. on arm there no way. very disapointable for 2022 year.
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<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> not just drivers for hardware but general boot up any disto with distro provided kernel because even if some of the hardware does not work fully its better then what we have right now where the distro can't even boot sometimes
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> it can't find the pcie root through scanning, but once it has a pcie root, it can find out what's on pcie through autodiscovery
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> ACPI vs. DTB doesn't change whether you can "boot any distro"
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> A shitty ACPI is going to block boot all the same.
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> Take an ebin with u-boot 2023.02, and you can boot any distro-provided kernel through UEFI with dtb passed from platform firmware
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> I don't think I ever had a
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> your in the future?
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> yes.
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> I mean, you could use 2022.04 or .07 like armbian provides, but I know of a bug that I fixed that's going into 2023's release.
<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> the 2023 uboot is going to be better?
<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> it fixes said bug in the default environment