Werner changed the topic of #armbian to: armbian - Linux for ARM development boards | www.armbian.com | Github: github.com/armbian | Commits: #armbian-commits | Developer talk: #armbian-devel | Forum feed: #armbian-rss | Off-Topic: #armbian-offtopic | Logs: -> irc.armbian.com
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<Armbian-Discord>
<Jason123> I just use debian instead of ubuntu. In terms of armbian it works the same but none of the ubuntu issues
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* Herc
as well, and for an desktop: good old 'tasksel'
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<Armbian-Discord>
<Stefano Roncalli> Hi all, I'm trying to build my own customized version of Armbian, following instruction, I've made a customize-image.sh with all my needs.
<Armbian-Discord>
<Stefano Roncalli> if I run the "compile.sh" with "BUILD_MINIMAL=yes" it runs correctly
<Armbian-Discord>
<Stefano Roncalli> If I run the "compile.sh" with "BUILD_DESKTOP=yes" it seems the script isn't called anymore
<Armbian-Discord>
<Stefano Roncalli> this is my compile.sh call
<vpeter>
Basically to get any useful support from forum is to pay first?
<vpeter>
Because this is written again and again when users are asking for help.
<[TheBug]>
No, to get a guraenteed response from us, you would pay for the post. Community members are always able to help community members and there is no cost on that.
<[TheBug]>
basically offering invested individuals or companies an opportunity to get some ideas about bug fixes and what they may take to accomplish instead of the issue going stale in the community because there is no one actively supporting whatever your issue is.
<[TheBug]>
If someone is active and knows your issue they generall help out around here, so it will be for cases where you don't want to wait for such or can't get any responses from comunity.
<[TheBug]>
generally*
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<vpeter>
Not usual way I think but ok. Every project can do whatever it wants.
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<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> will you provide support for our users 8 hours per day. and go with them to the solution of the problem? ofc for free
<vpeter>
And why is the forum them? Make it only pay per post. But saying forum is for free support and then asking for money seems contradictive. Why don't you just ignore such posts/requests where you have nothing smart to say.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> forum will remain free
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> this is option for those that can't wait and were now blackmailing us
<vpeter>
blackmailing how exactly?
<vpeter>
And why you ask or money again and again on forum if it is free?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> it is not working, you have to fix
<vpeter>
And comparing Proxmox with Armbian is a joke :-)
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> while it takes 10+ years sometimes that bug is fixed
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> yes, they are not even close
<vpeter>
And so what if it takes 10 years? User asking for help ... no one helps ... case closed.
<vpeter>
It is forum after all.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> users pin all problems of open source to us if you haven't noticed
<vpeter>
It is not contract.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> well, not just to us
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> nobody is forcing anyono to pay anything
<vpeter>
And you just get upset. And asking for money. Ignore it.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> we have to generate cash flow or stop a lot of activities
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> free support is the biggest loss
<vpeter>
Then just don't do free support anymore. Close the forum.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> why, i count that you will help others
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> isn't this forum about?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> armbian staff can't provide free support, that's it
<vpeter>
Yes. But others don't ask for money - only help if they know how.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> which others? those that file us bugs on forum?
<vpeter>
You are always saying "no pay, no support".
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> that never fixed any bug?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> if you don't pay, don't ask that someone will work days or weeks to fix a problem
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> this is not possible. and you know it
<vpeter>
Again: Why do you have forum then.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> forum is community thing
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> look a bit wider
<vpeter>
But you ask for money constantly.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> vendors are hacking this by providing support via their paid people via forums
<vpeter>
User is asking another user if it can help with a problem he has. And then you say "money first" :)
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> we can't pay lets say 3-4 full timers to support "our" "clients"
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> i am not a user
<vpeter>
But why don't you then ignore forum requests?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> i do most of it, yes
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> but we still have to tell people, that we can help if they help
<vpeter>
Forum is "best effort". Sometimes you get feedback and sometimes you don't. Users should know that.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> if they don't help, there is nothing we can do
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> yes, and this will remain unchanged
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> no, this is your perspective
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> general perception is not that
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> sadly
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> most of them act like a spoiled consumer
<vpeter>
And now explain to me how can some basic user never did anything in this arm world help you with anything? Except to pay lot of money. His major mistake is to even use Armbian.ž
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> the same problem exist in all other distributions. have you forget that small fact?
<vpeter>
because on first issue it will stuck with a problem.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> most of things are not armbian problem
<vpeter>
But other distro handles this very differently.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> really?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> name one
<vpeter>
Show me where other distros ask for money again and again when users asking for help?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> most of distros does exactly nothing
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> at least in this field
<vpeter>
True, they are oriented for different use. But still users asking for problems on the forum and they get nicer feedback. I see only Armbian hostile :)
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> this is remedy for that hostility.
<vpeter>
But ok, not my problem. See it strange: that's it.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> strange is if you insults me with a question "will you work for me 24/7 for next 7 days"
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> and you don't even think to cover that
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> such help questions are quite often here
<vpeter>
But you still don't get that this is forum post. And users are just users.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> don't you agree its stupid even to answer?
<vpeter>
But you do answer. Again and again :)
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> yes, competitors have paid people on forum
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> just remember this
<vpeter>
So what.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> just telling you, how this works
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> "community" vs community support
<vpeter>
By best effort as I said. Everyone can ask. For a small thing where they made a typo and when they need full port to new device. The point is how to react on this. And Armbian handles this very wrong way.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> "everyone can ask." very often people bump their topics "is this solved" "fix this or ..."
<vpeter>
Obviously different POV.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> i am ok if you pay bills, but you don't
<vpeter>
I see Armbian forum stupid mistake which should not exist. And use only this new pay model.
<vpeter>
Why should I pay for anything.
<vpeter>
I don't need such support.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> you should pay without having this conversation to support our work
<vpeter>
Sorry, I don't understand this last part.
<vpeter>
But ok, I don't care. Enough.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> why you don't support the project without project asking you ?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> is it so wastefull?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> doesn't produce any value?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> support is the only way to finance it
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> there is also a small company behind
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> if they would just waste time for their clients for free, they would be gone by now
<vpeter>
So if I think it is really great project than I would pay something. Well, not pay: donate.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> but if you will want me to sit down with you several hours ... will you expect I will pay that?
<vpeter>
But they also have big clients who pay big money. That's why they exist.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> the same goes here
<vpeter>
That's great. Expect of your annoying posts on forum.
<vpeter>
So Armbian big customers should also cover this forum costs.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> we can't hire people to support you for free
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> pay electricity is paid
<vpeter>
Again: don't do community stuff then. Be only business oriented.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> brb, have a meeting.
<vpeter>
Now it is really enough. We will never come to same POV :)
<Armbian-Discord>
<jean-m-cyr> @IgorPec I'm curious. When you say 'we', who exactly do you mean? Is the a formal list of developers?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> jean-m-cyr this generally goes for project maintainers, but we will extend this paid support to anyone and get a cut
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> forum is best effort support. those who need more then that ...
<Armbian-Discord>
<jean-m-cyr> I run Armbian on all Rockchip based SBCs except for the rock-5b. What level of funding would be necessary to accelerate development for the rk3588?
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> it depends what do you mean by that. if you are serious about funding some part, lets talk https://calendly.com/armbian
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> so i can tell you what we have now and what we can do
<Armbian-Discord>
<jean-m-cyr> ok, thanks.
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> select among "staff and partner" if this year
<Armbian-Discord>
<IgorPec> btw, what is your timezone?
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<Armbian-Discord>
<ManoftheSea> Igor, you spent over an hour arguing with vpeter. You gotta respect your own time better than that. You told him once, then move on.
<Armbian-Discord>
<TheBug> Yeah and also that whole conversation was silly. Its pretty simple actually, forum is free for anyone to ask and there are members around here that constantly give their time for free to help others and fix issues around here. The problem becomes an expectations one, everyone just assumes if they post they will have an answer or a solution, that is not how it works in a community situation and this causes people to
<Armbian-Discord>
attempt to directly contact people instead of being patient and waiting for help in the forum. Instead of telling people "Sorry we can't help you at all" we are instead trying to create a method for those people to at least get a response to their concern (not a solution or a fix, but an answer is what is promised) in 48 hours. The cost of those posts is to offset the time of the staff spent on answering and resolving those
<Armbian-Discord>
questions if possible. The other reason for the private forum is for our Partner, this is it's main use regardless, we are just opening up an opportunity to those who want to donate and help Armbian to take advantage of this also if they want. The barrier to entry is on purpose and I am thinking this is your actual issue not the fact that this now exists. For that, I am not sorry, it is what we need to keep things reasonable around
<Armbian-Discord>
here.
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<stipa>
freedom doesn't work in capitalism
<stipa>
it's not about changing ppl to think open source it's just that they live in another system
<stipa>
where what they do is a norm
<stipa>
every yes no maybe is a red flag
<stipa>
capitalism is a machine like any other and yes no maybe is not what makes a machine going it's results
<Armbian-Discord>
<TheBug> Honestly, its more a deterrent than charging people, it will take someone who is serious to spend the money as has been outline and thats the person we are happy to help and it should hopefully also help lessen those that feel like we are obligated to answer their issues/questions on their time schedule ... which happens a lot more than you would think
<stipa>
then don't do it
<[TheBug]>
then you obviously don't understand the problem. lol
<[TheBug]>
its not like your here answering everyones question stipa ;)
<[TheBug]>
if you want to promise that I will send them all to you instead
<[TheBug]>
you can spend 10 hours a day on it :)
<stipa>
i explained you what the problem is
<stipa>
if you want to break into capitalism boards have to work
<[TheBug]>
problem is we need more people to support people if you don't do it this way -- so as I said, if you and a few others want to volunteer 5-10 hours a day to help all the people then we can remove that for anything but our Parners.
<[TheBug]>
Partners*
<[TheBug]>
but I am thinking if you look past the $ you will see this is actually something that will be productive for everyone in the end as the money is reinvested back into Armbian by paying for people, infrastructure and resources to build the images
<[TheBug]>
and no one is obligated to use it either. its 100% optional.
<[TheBug]>
stipa: touche at your getting me involved to waste my time and demonstrate how my simple response has been subverted. LOL
<stipa>
you need investors not donations
<[TheBug]>
No, I need a wife who gives good head, all of that sounds like a headache :D
<stipa>
well, that's another level i agree
<stipa>
it's not easy to make a business that has happy customers