<heat_>
probably cuz some neckbeard made it so so he could draw his anime girls
<heat_>
yearo f thee linux desktop
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<clever>
heat_: are they just absolute HID devices now, or something more special?
<clever>
ive delt with absolute mice a lot when doing VM stuff
<heat_>
dunno, didn't check
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<nikolar>
Matt|home: kitty indeed
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<isabella>
hi, asking here because you guys probably know, but i suspect the answer is no
<isabella>
is there a way to specify the initial register values for an elf binary?
<isabella>
i'm open to trying other binary formats too, maybe, as long as linux can run them
<isabella>
not things like binfmt-misc tho
<clever>
isabella: none that i know of, if you want something in a register, then just use a mov or ld opcode to put the value in there, in your _start routine
<isabella>
yeah
<isabella>
makes sense
<isabella>
thanks anyway
<clever>
depending on the platform, there may be some things already loaded into registers/ram for you
<clever>
but not much you can really change
<isabella>
what if i only need to set a certain value in rax
<clever>
userland binaries have a valid stack pre-configured, and some special data already in the stack
<isabella>
what if i was on like arm or something
<clever>
baremetal or userland?
<isabella>
userland linux
<clever>
then its what i already said, the stack will be pre-configured, and some data already on the stack
<bslsk05>
github.com: linux/fs/binfmt_elf.c at master · torvalds/linux · GitHub
<clever>
and the other binfmt files in that directory
<clever>
such as fdpic and flat
<isabella>
many thanks
<clever>
isabella: oh, and modern security stuff, really dislikes a single page being both +w and +x at the same time, so what your wanting to do is already nasty! :D
<isabella>
well it doesn't need w
<clever>
then where will your stack live?
<clever>
how will you call any functions?
<isabella>
look at x.s
<clever>
nasty! :D
<isabella>
i thought it was cute
<isabella>
linux supports execve(name, NULL, NULL)
<isabella>
i spent longer than i'll admit looking at strace and thinking it didn't manage to load the page at 0, because it was showing execve(NULL, NULL, NULL) and instead i expected it to print the filename
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<Ermine>
isabella: welcome to #osdev
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<heat>
netbsduser, nope, the vbox thing looks different
<heat>
fwiw ever since i figured out you need to summon satan to get a single .o out of meson that i'm less of a fan of meson for low level stuff
<nikolar>
i am convinced that 95% of projects would be fine with a basic makefile
<nikolar>
instead of meson or cmake
<heat>
depends, how complex are we talking here?
<nikolar>
the complexity of the 95% of the least complex c or even c++ code
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<heat>
cmake and meson do stuff for you, and that stuff tends to be hard or tedius
<heat>
tedious*
<nikolar>
like what
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<heat>
like doing dependency discovery, setting up all the -MMD switches properly, configuration options, rebuilding when config changes, compiler portability, etc
<nikolar>
compiler portability is the only thing you can't do automatically at all in make
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<nikolar>
you'd have to rewrite all the flags and whatnot yourself
<nikolar>
but rebuilding with config changes is just like $(OBJS): Makefile
<nikolar>
or whatever
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<heat>
everytarget: Makefile <every other makefile fragment> <all environment variables> <.config file if your project has one>
<nikolar>
sure
<heat>
linux kbuild literally goes to awful lengths to do this sort of stuff, literally makefile metaprogramming within make itself
<nikolar>
i doubt that linux falls into the 95% of the simplest projects
<heat>
i am aware
<heat>
but kbuild provides most of what you'd expect on a modern build system
<nikolar>
is kbuild usable as a general build system
<bslsk05>
github.com: GitHub - embedded-it/kbuild-template: Use Kbuild build system for your own applications. This is a small kbuild template, that you can easily adapt to your own needs.
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<nikolar>
huh neat
<nikolar>
i am probably going to play around with it
<nikolar>
weren't you porting onyx to kbuild or something
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<heat>
no
<heat>
i got kconfig
<heat>
kconfig is just the menuconfig stuff
<nikolar>
ooh right
<nikolar>
i remember you mentioning something
<heat>
kconfig is fortunately pretty nice and pretty self-contained apart from the little layer of kbuild i had to bring in
<nikolar>
that's neat
<nikolar>
other projects use kconfig too right
<nikolar>
i think busybox has a config that looks basically the sam
<nikolar>
and works
<heat>
busybox, toybox, yocto
<heat>
yes
<nikolar>
neat
<heat>
as for the rest of the build, i haven't liked my build system for a long time, nor do i have any real solutions
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<nikolar>
switch to kbuild kek
<netbsduser>
i reluctantly use Meson
<netbsduser>
it is oPiNiOnAtEd
<netbsduser>
that's what you call it when software arbitrarily refuses to do whatever its creator didn't foresee a use case for
<nikolar>
kek indeed
<heat>
no, meson is actually opinionated towards normal software
<heat>
you need to fucking die to get it to shit out a .o
<nikolar>
that's very opinionated if you ask me
<Matt|home>
afternoon.
<nikolar>
ello
<heat>
i can't imagine how i'd get it to shit out a .a that's actually partially linked in a specific way
<heat>
and then possibly later preprocessed with more information
<nikolar>
again, very opinionated
<heat>
what is?
<Matt|home>
... off topic but anyone using gnome in debian rn? this is the weirdest sound bite i've ever heard..
<nikolar>
heat: not letting you write custom rules for that sort of thing
<Matt|home>
hitting the back key in hexchat's text input box gives me this really fascinating reverb sound, never heard it before. weird
<heat>
nikolar, i think you can but it's a total nightmare
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<nikolar>
exactly
<GeDaMo>
Matt|home: which terminal?
<heat>
vs make which trivially lets you do this sort of stuff, but makes normal stuff hard to do
* Ermine
thinks of generating build.ninja from configure script
<nikolar>
heat: well depends on what you want to do
<Matt|home>
GeDaMo - idk, i just installed debian 12 or whatevs and under tasksel i clicked gnome
<nikolar>
if you want to just compile a bunch of c sources to .o and link then together, it's very simple
<GeDaMo>
See if the terminal has a settings
<Ermine>
upside of build.ninja is ezpz compile_commands.json
<netbsduser>
something i want to implement in my kernel in the medium/long term: per-table locking for both process page tables and the tables used for vm objects to point to their pages
<nikolar>
Ermine: ezpz compile_commands.json for everything if you use bear
<netbsduser>
with a top level of a few pointers to pages in the vm object struct itself for the "someone opened a few-hundred byte file" case
<Ermine>
nikolar: bear is analyzing output make, so it's inherently hacky
<nikolar>
it's not
<Ermine>
make output*
<nikolar>
it's interpecting the call to the compiler and collecting the args
<nikolar>
and it doesn't care what you run it with
<Ermine>
so it ptraces make or whatever?
<Ermine>
yikes
<nikolar>
eh i forget what actuall mechanism it uses
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<heat>
LD_PRELOAD
<nikolar>
it might be manipulating path or somethign
<nikolar>
or that
<Ermine>
heat: more yikes
<heat>
i mean, way better than ptrace if you ask me
<nikolar>
that's less yikes
<nikolar>
i mean when heat and i agree, then there must be someting to it :P
<heat>
side-effect: doesn't support statically linked make
<zid>
Yea, collective mass hysteria
<heat>
#musl in shambles
<nikolar>
lel
<heat>
fwiw bear might also support ptrace, i vaguely recall it having various methods
<nikolar>
i don't remember
<netbsduser>
i forget some people really like static linking and loathe shared linking
<Ermine>
ld_preload, aka the thing malware uses to hide its prescense from you
<heat>
ah no, it can create wrappers
<nikolar>
yeah that would make sense
<nikolar>
just have a script that's earlier in $PATH
<nikolar>
i don't think dynamic linking is evil, but i prefer static linking
<netbsduser>
i never understood this static linking thing personally
<zid>
do wayland people love static linking still
<nikolar>
you just link everything into one binary :P
<zid>
that's the one thing I knew about them, a few years ago
<nikolar>
wayland is probably as much of a mess as it was back then zid
<nikolar>
you didn't miss much P
<zid>
So now none of their shit works anymore, because they don't implement the reverse smellovision server api
<netbsduser>
i think they just got themselves worked up into a little tissy because they used systems lacking the sun engineering ethos, which played fast and loose and broke things all the time
<heat>
nikolar, wayland works generally better than xorg
<nikolar>
define generally better
<nikolar>
my brother is on wayland and he's complaining about stuff that's missing all the time
<heat>
generally fixes a bunch of problems people had
<nikolar>
like what
<heat>
IIRC, vsync issues at least
<nikolar>
xorg never had issues with vsync
<nikolar>
screen tearing is just enabled by default for some reason
<heat>
lol
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<GeDaMo>
Screen tearing ☑
<nikolar>
i don't get why distros ship xorg with screen tearing enabled honestly
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<nikolar>
heat does onyx boot on arm
<Ermine>
I guess it depends on the device?
<Ermine>
nikolar: xorg does have tearing issues
<nikolar>
well if it does, i've never come across them
<Ermine>
I did
<heat>
nikolar, uhh, i have a branch that would supposedly boot, but it's not finished and i haven't touched it for a year so it's completely out of date wrt master
<nikolar>
what did you even test it on
<heat>
my rpi in kvm
<nikolar>
ah fair enough
<zid>
xorg does if the driver does
<zid>
windows has screen tearing issues on all drivers
<Ermine>
or if you don't use compositor
<zid>
you can completely disable screen tearing on linux by using an nvidia driver and enabling triple buffering on the desktop or whatever you wanna do
<zid>
regardless of what xorg tries, it can't tear that way
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<nikolar>
zid: basically
<zid>
wdm on windows just tears for fun
<Ermine>
there are people which don't use nvidia
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<nikolar>
i don't
<Ermine>
e.g. intel
<nikolar>
and i haven't had issues with tearing on either intel or amd
<Ermine>
enabling TearFree caused artifacts for me
<nikolar>
*after disabling tearing
<Ermine>
windows never teared on that chip btw
<Ermine>
and plasma got triple buffering only recently
<nikolar>
i haven't run windows in a long time so can't compare
<Ermine>
The device I'm talking about has both windows and artix
<nikolar>
maybe your linux install is allergic to windows :P
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<Ermine>
heat: imo the problem with wayland is that they don't follow 'primum non nocere' principle, and that causes users to frustrate
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<nikolar>
also everything useful is in optional extensions, so the support varies
<heat>
i dont get it
<nikolar>
and also shelling out to third party software (like pipewire for screen recording) which de facto makes it a part of the wayland
<heat>
spill the beans in a non-ancient language
<zid>
all versions of windows tear if you do shockingly abnormal things like
<zid>
playing a video in one window, overlaying another window on top of it, then scrolling that top window
<nikolar>
kek
<zid>
there's some random bug in the compositor that's been there since aero
<zid>
and is still there
<Ermine>
nikolar: artix is allergic to windows? asking you as artix maintainer
<nikolar>
i was kidding
<nikolar>
i am not aware of any dual booting issues
<bslsk05>
pt.wikipedia.org: Primum non nocere – Wikipédia, a enciclopédia livre
<heat>
i can also use wikipedia
<heat>
i didn't get it
<heat>
i follow the "Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi" principle
<zid>
pt.
<zid>
does heat actually speak pot
<Ermine>
kek
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<Ermine>
E.g. wayland doesn't have global coordinate system. That leads to the fact that windows can't position themselves. And that breaks workflows in some apps. People don't like this
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<heat>
well, yes, wayland had to do away with many bad xorg decisions
<heat>
like "every program can read every other window"
<zid>
dw, that's now broken FOREVER, even if they fix it
<zid>
because static linking
<zid>
:D
<nikolar>
what Ermine has just said has nothing to do with xorgs bad decision
<zid>
only windows made after 2025 can position themselves
<nikolar>
this is purely wayland's bad decision
<Ermine>
nikolar: it has to do
<heat>
i would assume there's a very good reason for it
<zid>
every windows window can read every other window, send it fake messages, etc
<Ermine>
when I asked them why did they do this, I've got a reasonable answer
<nikolar>
the reason is screw you we didn't think of this
<zid>
it's just processes, but visual
<nikolar>
Ermine: what was it
<heat>
the people that work on wayland are the exact same that worked on xorg for years or decades
<nikolar>
heat: sure, doesn't mean that they can't mess up
<nikolar>
btw the xorg was is primarily making the existing thing keep working while removing bugs
<zid>
xorg has some decisions you wouldn't make today
<nikolar>
wayland work is making a thing from scratch
<nikolar>
very different things
<zid>
but they handed off SO much shit to the driver
<zid>
that it didn't ultimately matter
<nikolar>
basically
<zid>
nvidia just used all the hooks
<zid>
which xorg put in as part of the design
<heat>
yes, they can do a cleaner design with all the experience they had from fucking up xorg
<zid>
to make it work how you'd expect it to work
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<nikolar>
heat: my point is that the experience they had with xorg was very different to waht they are doing with wayland
<heat>
no? xorg had a lot of development before wayland became The Thing
<heat>
anyway
<zid>
xorg has more forks than wayland has good ideas
<nikolar>
did it really change significantly, in the decade before wayland was a thing
<nikolar>
zid: kek
<heat>
sure? one has to assume they weren't in maintainership mode for decades
<heat>
e.g they moved gpu drivers out of xorg and into the kernel, and then into mesa
<nikolar>
i am not talking about internals btw
<nikolar>
i am talking about the interface with user software
<nikolar>
the x11 protocol
<heat>
dunno
<netbsduser>
if wayland were so cool
<netbsduser>
then it would have ever ran on my OS
<nikolar>
where's wayland11
<netbsduser>
it hasn't, but xorg has
<nikolar>
kek
<heat>
sir, wayland is a protocol, not software
<nikolar>
wayland is the protocol
<netbsduser>
the only conclusion i can make is that wayland sucks while x.org is based
<nikolar>
xorg is the protocol they inherited, plus the implementation
<heat>
when are you running motif
<nikolar>
and they had experience with implementation
<nikolar>
the protocol was basically frozen
<Ermine>
protocol is x11
<netbsduser>
heat: alright, thne one of the 9001 wayland compositors
<netbsduser>
i would like to port CDE eventually
<nikolar>
Ermine: yes correct
<nikolar>
netbsduser: good idea
<netbsduser>
cde was already ported to linux in the early 90s so it can't expect too much
<heat>
any objections to: grep -v "#" .config | sed -E -e 's/=/ /' -e 's/^[^\n]/#define C/'
<nikolar>
xorg the project is x11 the protocol plus xorg the implementation, how about that Ermine
<heat>
i'm sure i could use awk to do the same, cleaner but i don't want to necessarily introduce a build dep on awk
<netbsduser>
in the future, realistically, i am likely to want to bring wayland + a wayland comprositor to my OS
<nikolar>
so you want to transform the config into a header?
<heat>
basically discards # lines, replaces = with a space and prefixes #define
<heat>
yes
<nikolar>
ah ok
<heat>
i had a script in python
<nikolar>
seems mostly fine to me
<netbsduser>
i loathe wayland aesthetically, it is hard to imagine something more fundamentally at odds with my sensibilities
<nikolar>
i agree netbsduser
<netbsduser>
but it looks like we are going to be hit by it, as if tied to rails by a maniac with a speeding train heading towards us
<nikolar>
kek
<nikolar>
a lot of linux desktop has been like that in the past hasn't it
<netbsduser>
if i want to have ports of relevant software (i do) i will have to face up to that
<Ermine>
I loathe Xlib aesthetically and technically
<netbsduser>
and xorg is hardly the lean, mean, and respectable server that some other historic X servers were
<nikolar>
now i wonder if there's a hobby os with proper gpu 3d acceleration
<netbsduser>
it's just that by its legacy it is portable to anything with unix sockets (maybe internet sockets?) and a few trivialities
<netbsduser>
nikolar: managram was making progress with virtio-gpu
<Ermine>
haiku
<nikolar>
really?
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<netbsduser>
haiku has several developers on retainer
<netbsduser>
they are always contracting them to do something or other
<Ermine>
i heard they've ported drm
<nikolar>
huh neat
<netbsduser>
it's only "hobby" in a very loose sense
<nikolar>
yea that was my opinion too
<nikolar>
i was expecting something more on the onyx scale
<nikolar>
maybe serenityos scale before a bunch of people got on
<netbsduser>
serenity was like that too, but they directed all money towards their webrowser and now they've taken the web browser away and let serenity fend for itself
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<nikolar>
basically
<heat>
netbsduser, what's the problem with wayland aesthetically? lol
<heat>
do you not like the logo :v
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<netbsduser>
heat: it is hard to express
<netbsduser>
but wayland "feels" like another of those linux userland trinkets so ill regarded in all other areas
<netbsduser>
it even has XML to reflect the trends of the hour of its creation
<netbsduser>
and i'm sorry but that hour was far less cool than the 1980s
<heat>
xorg is decidedly not cool
<heat>
defending xorg over wayland is like defending netware over freebsd 13
<netbsduser>
netware is also aesthetically cool
<netbsduser>
xorg is not so much
<netbsduser>
x11's heritage on the other hand is undeniable
<heat>
x11 and xorg's heritage is _wayland_
<netbsduser>
that's not heritage
<netbsduser>
these people are not true believers in distributed systems
<heat>
good
<heat>
who tf does xorg over the network these days?
<netbsduser>
how many of the xorg people ever stepped foot in the labs of MIT's project athena?
<heat>
dude what
<Ermine>
surprisingly enough, there are people who do xorg over network
<netbsduser>
the point is that they have no connection with the history of X11
<heat>
how so?
<netbsduser>
when i last looked most of them were linux hackers who maintained something that was adopted into the linux userland
<heat>
how many other implementations of X11 are there and how many users do they have? who was responsible for most X11 extensions?
<Ermine>
but Drew wrote on this topic: 'little about wayland is inherently network opaque'
<Ermine>
macos has xquartz btw
<heat>
X11 is *mostly* Xorg
<heat>
just as UNIX is *mostly* Linux
<heat>
and C is mostly gcc (and clang now), etc
<netbsduser>
i have never deigned to defend xorg except to the extent that because of its heritage from x11 of the 80s i find it slightly less aesthetically unaligned with me than wayland is
<Ermine>
NeWS NeWS NeWS
<netbsduser>
i think in some ways sun's news was even cooler and prefigured some modern sensibilities
<Ermine>
but it died
<netbsduser>
you could write serious portions of UI logic directly in display postscript, which ran locally on whatever machine you viewed it on
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<netbsduser>
so i see it as prefiguring what is going on with webapps a bit
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<nikolar>
Btw I occasionally use x over network
<nikolar>
Very handy in certain cases
<nikolar>
And definitely cannot be replaced by vnc or whatever
<netbsduser>
i use it often
<nikolar>
Pretty cool
<nikolar>
There is waypipe that's supposed to do the same
<Ermine>
Anyway
<Ermine>
All hail SurfaceFlinger
<heat>
all hail tty
<netbsduser>
why is it called "Flinger" anyway
<heat>
because you fling your fingers
<netbsduser>
it conjures up images of an abstract artist flinging streaks of paint against a canvas
<netbsduser>
google loves these jungli names for some reason
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<Ermine>
never seen tty on android btw
<netbsduser>
people used to love installing a terminal app on their androids and running BASH and such
<Ermine>
it must be a very serious disaster if you get dumped to tty in android
<gog>
what is bash
<netbsduser>
gog: a popular shell
<gog>
oh
<gog>
what's a shell
<netbsduser>
it's an analogy
* Ermine
the CheeseFlinger gives gog a piece of cheese
* gog
is fascinated
<gog>
sorry
<netbsduser>
just as a shell is the outer visible thing of molluscs, so is a shell the outer visible layer of an operating system
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<zid>
Except for the little eyes poking out, that's the.. something of the operating system
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<heat>
is there a solution in C for an expression that should shut up unused warnings while also not evaluating it?
<heat>
(void) (x) but without evaluating the damn thing
<zid>
you don't get unused warnings for things that evaluate
<zid>
stop trying to do quines where things mean different things at random
<Ermine>
do you write a macro?
<heat>
basically i have DCHECK() for debug builds, i want to compile whatever it is inside the () out, while shutting up unused warnings
<nikolar>
erm #define X(a)
<nikolar>
X(expressiom)
<zid>
Then you already have the ability to do something depending on what you want
<zid>
cus it's already a macro
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<heat>
found a solution: #define DCHECK(x) ((void) __builtin_constant_p((x)))
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