<GalaxyNova>
Some simple programs sometimes take up to 100 megabytes
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* midfavila-laptop
grimaces
<midfavila-laptop>
speaking of simple programs, would anyone know a good place to start reading about how panel support is handled in window managers? like, is there a spec? I imagine ewmh covers it, but not sure.
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<GalaxyNova>
why are so many people disconnecting and reconnecting
<GalaxyNova>
smh
<midfavila-laptop>
probably netsplits
<midfavila-laptop>
...oh, hey! Someone wrote a DECWindows theme for gtk3
<midfavila-laptop>
astonishing
<GalaxyNova>
dilyn: What's KISS's policy on depricated software?
<GalaxyNova>
> software that isn't going to receive any updates
<GalaxyNova>
do they get to stay in the repositories?
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<trunc88>
hopefully quick problem that i still havent figured out: no icons are showing up in any graphical applications, even though i have hicolor-icon-theme installed. I installed gkiss over the void installation i was using before, keeping my home folder, so im guessing theres some configuration file or something in there thats messing with it. neither ~/.config/gtk-3.0/settings.ini nor ~/.gtkrc-2.0 had any effect on the icons
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<noocsharp>
GalaxyNova: there's a lot of software in the repos that doesn't receive updates
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<midfavila-laptop>
so
<midfavila-laptop>
currently experimenting with sxhkd
<midfavila-laptop>
i'm thinking based
<midfavila-laptop>
you can set up emacs-style keychords in it
<necromansy>
sxhkd is pre nice
<midfavila-laptop>
indeed it is
<midfavila-laptop>
I'm working on a new environment for myself based around the shod window manager, I think I'm gonna switch.
<midfavila-laptop>
it's so fucking cool
<necromansy>
god ikr
<midfavila-laptop>
anyway brb
<midfavila-laptop>
we can continue this conversation after I restart my x session
<necromansy>
np
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<midfavila-laptop>
and we're back
<midfavila-laptop>
had to quickly set up stalonetray
<midfavila-laptop>
I've been tinkering with shod for *hours*
<necromansy>
ive messed around with shod briefly
<necromansy>
i really love the idea of it
<midfavila-laptop>
Same!
<necromansy>
but ive gotta sit down and mess with it
<midfavila-laptop>
It's basically what I would write, if I was gonna write a WM
<midfavila-laptop>
you get tabbing, tiling, window shading, custom decor, and......\
<midfavila-laptop>
that's it
<midfavila-laptop>
everything else is outsourced
<necromansy>
all you need really
* midfavila-laptop
nods
<necromansy>
actually that reminds me i might reinstall it
<midfavila-laptop>
Although I added lemonbar and stalonetray
<necromansy>
i was messing with it like 4 days ago
<midfavila-laptop>
I have it packaged, if you want
<necromansy>
and deleted it for DWM
<midfavila-laptop>
along with all its associated tools
<midfavila-laptop>
gonna try to sit down and write a proper port of the DECwindows theme for XFWM tomorrow
<necromansy>
yeah that'd be good
<midfavila-laptop>
had to install gvim explicitly for its XPM mode
<midfavila-laptop>
basically it's the same options as emacs
<necromansy>
ahh yeah aight
<necromansy>
i also find myself once again wanting to try diff browsers
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<midfavila-laptop>
i wanted to try nyxt the other day, but apparently it doesn't work on musl
<necromansy>
yeah i was burned by that a few months back
<necromansy>
nyxt seems neat
* midfavila-laptop
nods
<necromansy>
but the lack of musl support sucks
<midfavila-laptop>
I want to start using Common Lisp as my primary scripting language
<midfavila-laptop>
it seems much more useful than shell
<necromansy>
yeah
<midfavila-laptop>
also, holy crap has picom ever improved
<necromansy>
im wanting to try messing with uhhhhh s9
<midfavila-laptop>
s9?
<necromansy>
scheme implementation
<midfavila-laptop>
never heard of it
<midfavila-laptop>
i'm only familiar with GNU Scheme and CHICKEN
<midfavila-laptop>
and GUILE
<necromansy>
its a plan9 compat scheme
<midfavila-laptop>
looking at it now
<midfavila-laptop>
looks cool
<necromansy>
yeah
<midfavila-laptop>
only R4RS though???
<necromansy>
a lot of the lightweight schemes are R4RS
<midfavila-laptop>
hmm. fair enough then
<necromansy>
theres stalin, which is a 'brutaliser' compilier
<necromansy>
its r4
<midfavila-laptop>
yeah, I know about stalin
<midfavila-laptop>
"stalin brutally optimizes"
<necromansy>
love the idea of ti
<necromansy>
doesnt build on KISS tho :|
<midfavila-laptop>
ngl,
<midfavila-laptop>
I kind of wish Scheme and LISP had taken off
<midfavila-laptop>
instead of Python and C
<necromansy>
i wonder what computing would be like if it had
<noocsharp>
"63M hello world"
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<midfavila-laptop>
the only reason SBCL has to pack all that stuff into it is because it's a self-contained environment
<midfavila-laptop>
imagine if like, a compiled bytecode for python included the entire stdlib and interpreter
<midfavila-laptop>
it's basically that.
<midfavila-laptop>
only reason C gets away with not doing that is because it's ubiquitous
<noocsharp>
not really, statically linking is still small
<noocsharp>
20K for a statically linked hello world
<midfavila-laptop>
doesn't static linking only include the routines being called?
<noocsharp>
it's because it doesn't have a runtime like lisps do
<noocsharp>
yes
<noocsharp>
but go binaries are still huge because go has a runtime, and they are statically linked
<midfavila-laptop>
yeah, I was gonna say, SBCL at least includes a lot more than just the specific routines...
<noocsharp>
yeah, but with sbcl you don't have a choice i assume
<noocsharp>
it has to include all that stuff to work
<midfavila-laptop>
not as far as I'm aware
<noocsharp>
oh
<midfavila-laptop>
it's essentially a huge core dump of the current lisp environment
<midfavila-laptop>
complete with debugger, repl, the entire contents of all include'd libraries, etc
<noocsharp>
well that's why lisps didn't take off probably
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<midfavila-laptop>
lisps only need to do that because they're not standard, I imagine...
<noocsharp>
no
<noocsharp>
it's because they need a runtime, and c doesn't
<noocsharp>
or at least some do
<noocsharp>
you need garbage collection and a whole host of other things included in the binary, whereas c doesn't need it
<midfavila-laptop>
as far as I'm aware, the only *reason* C doesn't need a runtime like other languages is because C's standard libraries and stuff are already everywhere
<noocsharp>
a runtime is the overhead of the language in order to run your code
<noocsharp>
standard libraries are not part of the runtime
* midfavila-laptop
shrugs
<noocsharp>
c is way easier to translate to machine code than lisps, precisely because it is so low level that it doesn't need a runtime
<testuser[m]1>
Why would someone use webengine over regular chromium
<dilyn>
for all that sweet sweet kde integrations dawg
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<omanom>
<midfavila: imagine if like, a compiled bytecode for python included the entire stdlib and interpreter> python's `pyinstaller --onefile` does that, essentially
<omanom>
binaries are usually on the order of 10-15MB depending on how complex your code is (read: how many external dependencies it pulls in, since they all have to get bundled)
<omanom>
@GalaxyNova referring to Microsoft mandating TPM chip, UEFI, and SecureBoot for Win11?
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<acheam>
wait UEFI/secure boot only, or just as an option?
<acheam>
I thought you meant that computers shipping windows 11 were only allowed to have secure boot and stuff on, and you aren't allowrd to turn it off
<acheam>
even when using not windows
<dilyn>
nah, you just wont' be able to install windows 11 without secureboot enabled
<dilyn>
the TPM requirement is... interesting...
<omanom>
well that's certainly their end goal, but right now as @dilyn said its just to prevent win11 installations
<omanom>
on "non-approved" hardware
<omanom>
or non-approved hardware configurations i guess is more appropriate
<omanom>
the question is whether they will start tying Win11 licenses down to specific hardware (well, even more than they already do...) meaning if I want to upgrade a graphics card I'd have to essentially buy permission
<dilyn>
that seems unlikely, if only because they're transitioning to SaaS
<dilyn>
I think it's probably motivated by trying to stamp out Linux more
<dilyn>
they've invested so much into WSL after all
<dilyn>
Who needs Linux installed anymore anyways
<konimex>
with the rise of ARM chips (like the M1), does the Secure Boot thing also work on ARM?
<dilyn>
i'm almost certain secure boot has been implemented on ARM hardware
<omanom>
>Like most mobile devices, ARM-based Certified For Windows RT devices, such as the Microsoft Surface RT device, are designed to run only Windows 8.1. Therefore, Secure Boot cannot be turned off, and you cannot load a different operating system.
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<omanom>
however, the signing key for locking down some of those devices was leaked so there's a decent effort at getting linux installed on them
<dilyn>
technically there's nothing stopping you from signing your own kernels to use secure boot
<schillingklaus>
using leaked keys is illegal under some jurisdictions
<konimex>
I meant the signing own kernel to use secure boot, is it PITA? or the process is rather straightforward?
<omanom>
ah, i don't know
<dilyn>
you just need to sign the image and have a cert
<dilyn>
I don't know where those all have to be located, but it's not "hard"
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<michael>
Hello, I'm trying to install KISS but am getting errors with the kernel.
<michael>
I configured the kernel, then ran make -j "$(nproc)", which gave this error: https://0x0.st/-pNa.txt
<michael>
I looked online and found a reddit post with a similar issue, where I followed instructions and added #include <linux/stddef.h>, after which the original command seemed to work.
<michael>
The error says to run "make" first, which I already did with make -j "$(nproc)".
<michael>
Any advice?
<GalaxyNova>
that's a thing with newer kernels
<GalaxyNova>
you can fix it pretty easy
<GalaxyNova>
there's a patch for it
<dilyn>
so that second message indicates that the kernel enver actually got built
<michael>
In the middle of make -j's output, there was some kind of message about python3 missing, but I thought it was fine, since the installation guide didn't say to install python
<michael>
Where can I find a working patch, or what version should I use?
<GalaxyNova>
michael: the kernel never got built because of the error so the make install failed
<dilyn>
We'd have to see the actual log to know for sure, but `make` for the kernel is pretty good at incremental builds. if you rerun make, what happens?