ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: KISS Linux | https://k1sslinux.org | /msg zr for kisslinux/* cloaks | logs: https://k1sslinux.org/irc#2.0 | word of the day: "orangutangs"
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<acheam> Leave you're muscle memory at the door
<acheam> but hey, its all configurable
<acheam> I might make a config file that makes the keybindings more traditional
<acheam> and include it in contrib/
<midfavila-laptop> god, I'm fucking melting, guys
<midfavila-laptop> it's over 30C in my city today, humidity is in the 70s
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<noocsharp> :>
<noocsharp> same here except humidity in the 80s
<noocsharp> a nice summer day
<riteo> huh, am I the only one not really feeling like I'm melting?
<riteo> I mean, I got some pretty heavy clothes on and I'm not sweating that much
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<riteo> anyways gtg to sleep, bye guys, cya!
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<testuser[m]1> Hi
<noocsharp> howdy
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<acheam> hey testuser[m]1
<testuser[m]1> midfavila-laptop you can just copy libz.so to /tmp/libs/zstd.so and add /tmp/libs to ld_library_path to get a working gcc
<testuser[m]1> With the proper soname ofcourse
<acheam> ugh this website gives you a 500 error if you have fetches disabled
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<noocsharp> was there an update to webkitgtk sometime recently that made it actually usable?
<noocsharp> i downloaded lariza and i could load the heaviest website i ever have to deal with
<testuser[m]1> yeah
<testuser[m]1> its fixed now
<testuser[m]1> thanks to q66
<noocsharp> was it like a kiss specific thing or upstream?
<testuser[m]1> upstream
<noocsharp> yay, now i have a choice between 3 usable browser engines
<acheam> it sounds like your not counting curl | sed
<acheam> opera I'm begging you to make presto open sourcr
<acheam> like, what do you have to lose
<acheam> I mean, the source is already leaked
<noocsharp> what? i was referring to webkit, curl | sed and trident of course
<acheam> *gasp* he uses proprietary browsers
<testuser[m]1> whats trident
<acheam> internet explorer
<testuser[m]1> oh
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<noocsharp> i had to look it up lol
<acheam> I only knew because I have the Wikipedia page "Comparison of browser engines" open
<necromansy> gotta love the situation in which thats not uncommon
<necromansy> ive had that page open at least 5 times
<noocsharp> webkit's kinda cheating on the iOS column
<necromansy> also unrelated but my first paper manuscript got accepted
<testuser[m]1> nice
<noocsharp> congrats
<necromansy> tyty
<acheam> hooray
<noocsharp> testuser[m]1: out of curiosity, do you know why webkit used to be so broken?
<acheam> I always type Netscape instead of netsurf lol
<testuser[m]1> noocsharp it was related to them not accounting for musl's stack size stuff
<testuser[m]1> and some ifdef guards for glibc stuff
<schillingklaus> qtwebkit or webkit2-gtk?
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<acheam> gtk
<noocsharp> interesting
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<riteo> hiii!
<testuser[m]1> Hi riteo
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<riteo> ok I think I got a way of avoiding a lot of dependencies for nvidia's package
<riteo> although it might depend on a custom fork of gcompat
<dilyn> before I go to bed, skimming logs:
<dilyn> the skinny on things like pkgconf (and linux-headers) is that they should be specified if they're required. If you don't need them, don't specify them.
<dilyn> Dylan's point about uneeded deps (https://k1sslinux.org/wiki/kiss/style-guide#1201) is, I think, optional dependencies (or erroneous dependencies)
<testuser[m]1> riteo wdym avoid dependencies here ?
<dilyn> if you find that a package requires linux-headers, pkgconf, etc. to build, make an issue/ping the maintainer/etc etc. dylan had an effort (as pointed out earlier) to make these *implicit* deps explicit
<dilyn> that pursuit continues today (there are several packages in community which require linux-headers but don't specify it, for instance)
<dilyn> pkgconf is distinct from the likes of make/gcc/musl/binutils because one is a toolchain and the other is a (lazy?) way for programmers to identify that lib requirements are satisfied at configure time (and specify all the right libs at build time)
<dilyn> as such, make et al (along with git, curl) are *assumed*, because they are... well, KISS
<dilyn> linux-headers is weird because it's a fundamental feature of Linux, but isn't required at runtime for anything. but it roughly slots in with pkgconf because all it does is provide headers, not actual tools
<riteo> testuser: At first I planned to make people run the installer manually or through part of the package installation process, but it requires a lot of stuff which was already there on adélie, my testing platform (for instance their ldconfig wrapper script which I don't know how to properly credit as it has no licence stated anywhere if not on the package), but I think that I'll install it on a debian
<riteo> chroot with fswatch and copy the respective files there
<dilyn> if I missed anything in that clarification, ping me :)
<riteo> I'm reading just now
<testuser[m]1> You mean the nvidia driver installer ?
<riteo> dilyn: mh, I think that we should at least make a list of all the implicit packages, because it stays quite vague, expecially at slightly more complex ones
<riteo> yes testuser[m]1
<dilyn> wdym?
<dilyn> I feel like such a thing is written somewhere
<dilyn> though it might just be something dylan said in IRC long, long ago
<riteo> probably, since the style guide has similar vague affirmations
<riteo> by the sound of it they're probably like 5, but having a list of packages that are implicit or not to point at would really avoid useless conversations on what's implicit and not
<dilyn> most things in core can be assumed. I'll check real quick
<dilyn> you can assume: binutils, curl, gcc, git, make, musl. you should specify: bzip2, gzip, xz, zlib - even though they are basically mandatory in most situations.
<dilyn> you need not specify init or grub; those are just 'defaults' provided for a *core* system
<dilyn> bison/flex/m4/libressl should always be specified
<dilyn> essentially, anything required by `kiss` or to properly configure && build a package (that is to say, `kiss` assumes git, busybox (utils), curl, and a toolchain) can be assumed
<dilyn> this could probably be disambiguated, somewhere :)
<riteo> yeah I agree
<dilyn> probably in Package System [3.0], would be the best way I think...
<riteo> wait, wasn't the rule to prefer $CC?
<riteo> oh yeah we're talking about deps right
<dilyn> yeah we prefer CC which is why we only assume a toolchain
<dilyn> :)
<riteo> is it against the distro scope to make it easier for flavors too?
<dilyn> depends files should never simply be copy-pasted from /var/db/kiss/installed/foo/depends, because it will include things like `gcc` (when it probably doesn't), and miss every make dep. so identifying deps is probably the most involved part of making a package
<dilyn> I wouldn't call it out of scope, just... uneccessary, I think?
<dilyn> I mean, it's a source based distro. Any sufficiently competent toolchain would work. We should assume if someone only has tcc and some obscure ar, they know their limits lmao
<dilyn> or what I think I misunderstood partially
<riteo> Well, dylan implied that if it wasn't that hard to do that the distro should "account" for other stuff like arch ports
<riteo> at least IIRC
<dilyn> hm, you'd have to job my memory on that
<riteo> wait, lemme see if I find something on kiss' blog
<riteo> I think I read it there
<riteo> I can't find it, at least quickly
<riteo> that's pretty annoying
<riteo> aaaaaaah I read it somewhere I'm sure
<dilyn> a big issue is how frequently information came and went from the (now 3) domains KISS has lived on
<dilyn> what with IRC, websites, and GitHub, a lot of things have been said.
<dilyn> It's like building a Bible with how disparate and difficult to find all of these accounts are :v
<riteo> iirc it was like on an announcement page, or was there a "community" one?
<testuser[m]1> news ?
<riteo> it was something along the lines of "although these ports aren't supported, KISS should help them when possible" but I can't find any proof
<riteo> testuser[m]1: I'll look there
<dilyn> ah, yes that
<dilyn> that was specifically related to aarch64 etc
<dilyn> so... yes
<dilyn> he said that we shouldn't make it hard to do. which I agree with
<riteo> welp I can't find it, but I guess two people remembering something is better than one
<dilyn> so if i'm remembering right (jesus it's been a long day), this circles back to your earlier point; yeah we don't specify toolchain bits because it just makes ports more tedious, isn't necessary, and anyone who would be bothered by it missing should know enough to realize it :v
<dilyn> yeah that section was entirely removed, a little while ago. by me, I believe -- relating to being out of date and not being properly maintained
<dilyn> the concept of that section was migrated to the 'kiss universe' section of the install guide and $/awesome-kiss
<dilyn> and with all that wisdom, I leave you for the evening! tomorrow I will be... less busy with life
<riteo> bye!
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<riteo> why's the whole web giving me a 503 error with "guru meditation:" written on it?
<riteo> is cloudfare down?
<riteo> looks like it
<riteo> fyi it looks like they're doing some maintenance, so expect the whole web to crumble for a while ig
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<root___> Github user content is down, do we have any mirrors for repo-bin?
<testuser[m]1> only the git repo is mirrored, not release
<testuser[m]1> which bin do you need ?
<root___> firefox 88.0.1
<testuser[m]1> i have 89 locally
<root___> It will work until github goes back up
<root___> could you upload it to some file sharing site?
<testuser[m]1> wait
<root___> Actually you don't have to
<root___> I found the tarball in my backups
<testuser[m]1> lol
<root___> Sorry to bother you
<testuser[m]1> itsfine
<schillingklaus> bothering dilyn would have been worse
<testuser[m]1> is crimeflare down or shithub ?
<root___> idk but i have heard that it is crimeflare
<riteo> I guess cloadfare
<riteo> cloudfare
<root___> github itself works fine
<riteo> they're doing some maintenance
<root___> Just content downloads don't
<testuser[m]1> centralization moment
<riteo> basically half the web's now down
<schillingklaus> why is half the web down?
<testuser[m]1> cuz they all depend on crimeflare[1;7C
<riteo> cloudfare's is doing some planned maintenance
<riteo> cloudfare is is doing
<schillingklaus> I boycott all cloudflare based sites
<riteo> obviously the web had to crumble right as I need a lot of q&a sites
<root___> Also in the moment i was rolling back my firefox upgrade
<testuser[m]1> oh fastly is dead too
<root___> Speaking of firefox
<riteo> cross-domain page dependencies were a mistake
<testuser[m]1> web was a mistake
<root___> Has anyone else had really bad performance problems with 89.0
<schillingklaus> firefox went down the sewer lid already 5 years ago or so, when moving to quantum
<testuser[m]1> perf has always been garbage
<riteo> root___: haven't updated yet
<testuser[m]1> what do u mean specifically ?
<root___> Everything is 10x slower
<root___> Even just starting the browser
<testuser[m]1> compared to chromium it feels so sluggish, just switched to ff few days back to give it another shot
<testuser[m]1> hmm i dont think it got any slower than before
<testuser[m]1> in my usage
<root___> I saw some people on reddit say that it is a weird bug for people using xorg
<testuser[m]1> oh, im on ayyland
<root___> Apparently it is actually faster on all other platforms
<root___> But idk
<schillingklaus> while xorg is full of unintentional bugs, wayland is deliberately useless
<root___> Just installed ff 88 back and i can say that performance problems are gone
<root___> Youtube loads in seconds instead of minutes
<root___> I really hope they fix this
<testuser[m]1> root___ are you using webrender ? maybe try disabling it
<root___> I tried, it made no difference
<testuser[m]1> turned off proton too ?
<root___> yes
<testuser[m]1> oof
<root___> I mean i did get a bit of performance back, i think, i actually did get to see yt loading
<root___> But still it is a giant downgrade compared to 88
<testuser[m]1> may i suggest links
<testuser[m]1> 2
<root___> Really unusable, especially on low end hardware
<root___> I have tried using links as my main browser and it was a fine browser
<root___> Web sites were the problem
<root___> web app built on a framework which is built on a framework which is made with an awful interpreted language which was jammed into a rendering engine for displaying formated text documents
<root___> ...
<riteo> swallow the geminipill
<root___> I have heard of it, but i will have to look into it some more
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<morphling> hello folks
<morphling> anyone had success using dm.mod-create for full disk encryption?
<illiliti> the partition must be formatted using DM-plain type
<illiliti> dm.mod-create can't be used with LUKS1/LUKS2
<illiliti> but i wouldn't recommend using dm.mod-create and DM-plain format
<illiliti> you can achieve plausible deniability by using LUKS1/LUKS2 + detached header
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<morphling> illiliti: how do you do that?
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<morphling> I was considering using grub to unlock the encrypted partition
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<morphling> but if I want to have multiple partitions locked instead of just root (swap maybe?), I'd have to use lvm2
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<illiliti> i don't use grub nor dm.mod-create. i use tinyramfs+luks+detached header
<illiliti> dm.mod-create forces you to expose your master key on kernel command line
<illiliti> so basically any app can access it via /proc/cmdline
<morphling> yeah well, I didn't really like that
<morphling> just looked up tinyramfs
<morphling> looks neat
<morphling> you wrote it too :)
<morphling> lmao
<illiliti> another way to store master key is directory embedding it into kernel
<illiliti> but this is insecure too
<illiliti> because anyone who have read access to kernel image can fetch your key
<schillingklaus> tinyramfs does noty require an udev imprle
<schillingklaus> udev implementation, does it?
<illiliti> tinyramfs doesn't require udev, unlike dracut/mkinitramfs
<morphling> how does detached header work? do you just extract the LUKS header into a usb drive and wipe it from the main drive?
<illiliti> yep
<illiliti> tinyramfs doesn't even require device manager to operate. the only things you need are switch_root, mount, cpio and POSIX coreutils
<illiliti> device manager required to populate /dev/disk/* though
<illiliti> in-kernel CONFIG_UEVENT_HELPER can be used to do that if you don't have device manager
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<illiliti> i would recommend using dm.mod-create for embedded devices because it simpler and consuming less memory. emdedded devices are usually highly isolated from external access, so exposing master key to /proc/cmdline is not big problem
<illiliti> dilyn: libudev-zero 0.5.0 is out. repology still shows 0.4.8 as latest ...
<testuser[m]1> Repology is dead
<testuser[m]1> s/is/Seems to be
<testuser[m]1> For kiss repos atleast
<illiliti> oh ok
<illiliti> thanks
<illiliti> didn't know
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<dilyn> are we... certain, it's wrong?
<dilyn> because it... doesn't look wrong...
<testuser[m]1> Oh it got fixed now
<dilyn> lmao
<dilyn> schrodinger's repology
<acheam> dilyn: bruh go to sleep
<dilyn> I did!
<dilyn> just woke up
<dilyn> it's noon lad
<dilyn> nevermind the fact that i stayed up until 4am :v
<acheam> 4am Is too early for kiss
<midfavila> >only 4am
<riteo> lmao
<midfavila> imagine not staying up until six AM troubleshooting zstd bullshit
<dilyn> i've gotten better at troubleshooting I guess
<midfavila> rude
<riteo> imagine not staying up until 6 AM to talk about obscure hardware with mid
<midfavila> hmm. that reminds me, I need to get around to adding pages to my site about some of my hardware...
<riteo> Will you put pictures too?
<midfavila> yeah
<riteo> I'd love that
<midfavila> if and when I get around to it, I intend to add reviews, disassembly and maintenance instructions, manuals, etc
<midfavila> as much for other people's benefit as mine, honestly
<riteo> Oh it'd be great for when I get my panasonic cf-c2
<riteo> if you want to add guides for that
<midfavila> i've actually yet to disassemble my laptop
<midfavila> but I want to upgrade its RAM soon
<riteo> nice
<midfavila> which involves an almost complete disassembly...
<midfavila> le sigh
<acheam> Sounds like a shitty laptop
<acheam> can't believe your reccomend it
<midfavila> it's a subnotebook. of course it's shitty, acheam
<midfavila> but among subnotebooks it's quite excellent.
<acheam> jut a supernotebook
<acheam> s/jut/get/g
<midfavila> if I could afford parts for my getac I'd be using that
<midfavila> gotta get my gains on
<midfavila> thing weighs like fifteen pounds fully kitted
<dilyn> sell one of your CPUs
<riteo> acheam: why's that? Do you have any other recommendation?
<dilyn> disregard cores, acquire currency
<midfavila> currency will be acquired in due time
<riteo> I actually plan to get a not too powerful, extremely disassembable and maintenable laptop, and the cf-c2 looks really nice for what I need
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<nerditup> | Just as I thought. No actual simplicity, just some neckbeards complaining about software evolving in the last 20 years.
<nerditup> :D
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<nerditup> just saw this on the testimonials section of the site
<midfavila> that's hecker noose for you
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<riteo> nerditup: you've seen nothing
<riteo> look at it and the merchandise section
<riteo> yes, there's a merchandise section
<riteo> this is one of the most based things I've ever seen dylan do
<midfavila> i actually kind of want one of those shirts
<riteo> yes
<riteo> this and the printed manual
<midfavila> normally I'm not a t-shirt kinda guy, but I'd make an exception
<dilyn> I've considered buying one for too long
<riteo> this is the only accepted use of js right now
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<nerditup> I'd buy it
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<dilyn> all proceeds from merch sales go... somewhere, I'm sure of it
<dilyn> probably to Dylan lmao
<noocsharp> unfortunately the address goes nowhere
<dilyn> f
<riteo> bruh moment
<riteo> I mean, someone might make just updated graphics and we might order them somewhere if we're not sure where it goes
<riteo> after all, it's not like he would've earned that much anyways, what? Like 1 buck?
<dilyn> margins on shirts is pretty big ngl
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<nerditup> what about a plain black t-shirt with the little lips in the corner
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<nerditup> on the back it reads, "keep it simple"
<noocsharp> "keep it simple stupid"
<noocsharp> it ain't KIS
<nerditup> the extra S is implied :D subtle
<nerditup> those who know, they know
<noocsharp> but we want to keep it simple, no hidden things
<riteo> keep it simple subtle
<rio6> have keep it simple in the front
<rio6> and a big supid on the back
<riteo> lmao
<kiedtl> stupid simpleton
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<ang> let's keep it simple, plain black t-shirt
<riteo> that's it
<riteo> it's decided
<dilyn> plain black tees
<riteo> tet is bloat
<riteo> aaand I spilled stuff on my keyboard
<riteo> nice
<midfavila> fuck, finally done with chapter one
<midfavila> K&R is brutal with some of its exercises
<omanom> congrats! you gonna jump right into chapter 2?
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<midfavila> later today, yeah
<midfavila> i've already started reading ahead a little bit. i'm so fucking sick of putchar and printf
<midfavila> i want to start writing personally useful programs soon. that'll be really rewarding
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<acheam> midfavila: what do you wear if not t shirts?
<midfavila> almost exclusively buttoned shirts
<acheam> you know you don't need to do ever exersize to completion, right?
<acheam> wow that completely changed my image of you
<midfavila> hah, what'd you think I wore?
<acheam> graphic Ts
<midfavila> and yeah, I know I don't have to complete every exercise, but I want to get as close as possible
<midfavila> ew
<midfavila> i think I own one t-shirt, and it's just a plain navy one.
<midfavila> i almost always dress in beige slacks and a matching shirt.
<acheam> "slacks"
<midfavila> yes. slacks
<midfavila> also known as trousers
<omanom> >beige slacks and a button-down shirt
<omanom> midfavila is a boomer?!
<midfavila> yes, the truth is revealed
<omanom> it explains your interest in older hardware :)
<midfavila> uwu
<dilyn> buttoned shirts are the only way
<dilyn> v-necks and button downs
<dilyn> don't forget the skinny jeans
<dilyn> a beanie for good measure
<midfavila> absolutely disgusting
<midfavila> when will you break out the overly-long knit scarf
<dilyn> in the winter lad
<midfavila> i can't stand using scarves
<dilyn> you must just not be cold enough
<midfavila> i just turn up the neck of my coat
<dilyn> brood lord
<midfavila> ..."brood lord"?
* acheam just wears T shirts + khaki shorts/pants depending on the season
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<dilyn> like an edge lord, but less edge and more brood
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<midfavila-laptop> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck
<midfavila-laptop> it's still so hot out today
<kiedtl> the humidity is the worst >:C
<midfavila-laptop> yeah... it really is
<midfavila-laptop> it's been especially bad in my city the past week
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<acheam> its 93f right now
<acheam> east coast heat wave?
<kiedtl> 100+ here
<rio6> 14C :3
<kiedtl> ,wa 14 * 2 + 30
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<acheam> lol
<acheam> thats on you that its not here
<kiedtl> The bot isn't even here, sheesh
<kiedtl> I'm getting too carried away with working on my roguelike
<schillingklaus> how does this roglike differ from angband, moria, or nethack?
<kiedtl> How could you not include Stone Soup in that list :P
<kiedtl> schillingklaus: well, for one thing everything is stealth oriented
<kiedtl> just about every mob could whop you by themself, it's up to use to use a combination of harmful potions, superior ranged weapons (which none of the other mobs possess) and your superior vision and hearing to escape each time there's an encounter
<midfavila-laptop> acheam this isn't a heat wave
<midfavila-laptop> just part of the usual summer weather
<kiedtl> Also, there are a large amount of mobs that are either (a) hostile to both you and the dungeon's main monsters or (b) friendly to you and hostile to the others
<midfavila-laptop> it regularly gets up to around 40C/100F
<kiedtl> which you can manipulate to distract mobs that are trying to chase you
<kiedtl> smh what are those slackers doing on the irc3 comittee, I want my reply-to
<schillingklaus> sounds difficult
<kiedtl> Heh, yeah
<midfavila-laptop> is ircv3 supposed to be backward compatible with the current protocol?
<kiedtl> schillingklaus: There are a bunch of other novel things about it (for instance, the majority of monsters don't care a fig about you and will just go about doing their own job), I'm working on a little essay detailing them. I'll probably link it here once I'm through :)
<kiedtl> midfavila-laptop: yup
<midfavila-laptop> nice.
<midfavila-laptop> fuck
<midfavila-laptop> the car I'm in ran out of gas. :|
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<omanom> oof no more ac eh
<midfavila-laptop> correct
<midfavila-laptop> now I must suffer in the heat
<midfavila-laptop> like a plebian
<midfavila-laptop> >:c
<omanom> just point your laptop's exhaust at you for a fan!
<kiedtl> but do 'kiss b cmake' first
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<midfavila-laptop> my laptop doesn't have a fan
<midfavila-laptop> ;w;
<acheam> uh what
<acheam> are you in a ridrshare?
<acheam> were you on your laptop in it?
<midfavila-laptop> nah, I'm out with a friend
<midfavila-laptop> but I am on my laptop, yes
<midfavila-laptop> why?
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<dilyn> my computer has almost zero fans :X
<dilyn> just the one on the CPU cooler and the GPU shroud
<dilyn> makes my room a constant 37C lmfao
<midfavila-laptop> my cosmos has like
<midfavila-laptop> five
<midfavila-laptop> soon to increase, I'm sure
<midfavila-laptop> has better acoustics than my last case though
<midfavila-laptop> and I don't have to risk slicing my hands open just to get at the internals
<dilyn> sometimes I can hear my CPU fan and I cry a little bit
<dilyn> gimme my 480 rad :'(
<midfavila-laptop> imagine using liquid cooling
<dilyn> I can most certainly imagine
<dilyn> and it's absolutely tantalizing
<illiliti> accurate dependency resolution slowly getting into king :)
<noocsharp> tsort = topological sort?
<illiliti> +
<noocsharp> nice
<illiliti> it's surprising that busybox didn't implement such a simple algorithm
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<noocsharp> sbase does apparently
<noocsharp> i didn't even know it was a thing
<illiliti> yeah
<illiliti> lol
<illiliti> it's POSIX lol
<noocsharp> that's actually immensely useful
<illiliti> it's probably can be used to implement proper dependency resolution in kiss
<illiliti> the problem is busybox though
<illiliti> we can borrow implementation from sbase
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<dilyn> it's so small!
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<midfavila> bluh
<midfavila> K&R can wait for tomorrow
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<noocsharp> i had to implement topo sort for a class, it's a very simple algorithm as illiliti said
<noocsharp> start at vertices with no incoming edges, and just walk
<dilyn> god i hate graph theory
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<june> > just walk
<june> away from the computer :)
<noocsharp> before i learned about it, i just assumed graph algorithms we're just complicated and unintuitive
<noocsharp> but it's actually quite the opposite
<midfavila> bluh, that's another thing I have to learn about
<illiliti> noocsharp: you're describing Kahn's algorithm which is quite verbose i would like to say
<illiliti> DFS is much simpler
<noocsharp> "note: expected 'struct wl_surface *' but argument is of type 'struct wl_surface *'"
<noocsharp> thanks mr gcc
<noocsharp> illiliti: yeah, i think you're right
<dilyn> yeah graph walking algorithms are straightforward and you can learn a lot of interesting stuff if you involve some linear algebra
<dilyn> very extensible
<dilyn> it's just... I just don't like graphs lmao
<midfavila> erlgerlberl
<noocsharp> well good luck getting proper dependency resolution in kiss without them :)
* dilyn shrugs
<dilyn> maybe when I want to think about it I'll realize it's a nightmare worth resolving
<midfavila> if and when I'm not godawful with mathematics, I'd be willing to help
<illiliti> implementing graphs in shell is painful without proper arrays
<illiliti> but i think it's possible
<noocsharp> i mean you can just maintain a list of edges, right?
<noocsharp> i guess the algorithms might be painful to write for that tho
<noocsharp> "| tsort" and all your problems are solved
<dilyn> i mean...
<illiliti> noocsharp: without proper arrays and structures that would involve a lot of parsing
<illiliti> and stuff like that: set -- $array
<illiliti> that would be inefficent, but possible to implement
<illiliti> i think
<dilyn> probably
<noocsharp> i'm beginning to suspect that shell script is not the best choice of language for a package manager
<dilyn> it would be a fun little project but I have no idea how fragile or slow it would be
<dilyn> lmfao impossible!
<dilyn> blasphemy!
<midfavila> idk dilyn
<midfavila> i feel like scheme or lisp would be a better interpreted language
<midfavila> muh recursion, muh functional language
<dilyn> go ahead and turn our meme package manager into a meme package manager written in a meme language
<dilyn> sch(m)eme
<midfavila> when I stop spending all day meming in a meme distro's meme-channel about their meme-manager I will
<noocsharp> damn, for the past 10 months i've been running a meme distro on my primary computer
<noocsharp> and it's better than the non-meme distro i was running before :>
<dilyn> :<
<dilyn> you're describing me!
<illiliti> midfavila: did you see guile? what's your thoughts of this lang?
<midfavila> it's neat
<midfavila> i mean, it's a scheme. scheme is neat
<midfavila> although among the current schemes I like chicken the most
<midfavila> minimal deps, doesn't take forever to build, can either be interpreted or transpiled to C, has a number of library bindings available...
<illiliti> ... and nicely integrated into guix
<midfavila> I was describing chicken :p
<midfavila> Guix is cool, though
<midfavila> I've considered trying it on my main machine
<dilyn> muh libre software
<illiliti> the only thing i don't like in NixOs/Guix is systemd approach
<illiliti> i mean everything is centralized in one place
<midfavila> silence, BSD cuck
<illiliti> this limits control over system so much
<midfavila> does guix use poetterware?
<midfavila> if so, that's really disappointing
<illiliti> no no
<illiliti> they use sheperd as init
<illiliti> written in guile
<midfavila> i was gonna say...
<illiliti> mhm..., how hard it would be to port shepherd to kiss?
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* midfavila shrugs
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<dilyn> this looks absolutely horrific
<dilyn> oh wait sorry
<dilyn> ;; this looks
<dilyn> (absolutely horrific
<midfavila> )
<illiliti> yeah, definitely not beginner-friendly
<illiliti> you had to be addicted to LISP to understand this
<noocsharp> damn .git cargo cultists
<noocsharp> as devault would say
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<noocsharp> does shepherd do service management too?
<noocsharp> oh wait, that's literally what it is
<midfavila> yup
<illiliti> it's systemd written in guile
<noocsharp> whenever i hear guile i associate it with the bile
<noocsharp> not a great name for a language
<dilyn> not inaccurate tho
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<illiliti> looks minimal
<illiliti> althrough there is the bad things: libintl, libltdl
<illiliti> everything else can be vendored and statically linked
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