ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: KISS Linux | https://k1sslinux.org | /msg zr for kisslinux/* cloaks | logs: https://k1sslinux.org/irc#2.0 | word of the day: "orangutangs"
illiliti has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
illiliti has joined #kisslinux
<dilyn> this dep issue existed all the way back when... https://github.com/kiss-community/kiss/issues/29
<dilyn> fascinating...
<dilyn> it's... always existed? that can't be right. can it?
<acheam> it was right under our noses!
<acheam> how dare it!
<midfavila-laptop> dilyn
<midfavila-laptop> you have been duped
<dilyn> he was the chosen one :'(
<midfavila-laptop> japed
<midfavila-laptop> perhaps even bamboozled
<dilyn> i've certainly been boozled
<dilyn> to be fair there are not many potential examples
<dilyn> i only noticed because linux-headers requires gmake, and I was building a few things that only required linux-headers
<dilyn> harumph ho humph
<midfavila-laptop> what did you know, hunter2
<dilyn> who?
<dilyn> all I see is *******
critbase has joined #kisslinux
claudia has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
critbase has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
zenomat has quit [Ping timeout: 272 seconds]
zenomat has joined #kisslinux
zenomat has quit [Changing host]
zenomat has joined #kisslinux
Uks2 has quit [Quit: Byee]
Uks2 has joined #kisslinux
clemens3 has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
schillingklaus has joined #kisslinux
schillingklaus has quit [Quit: schillingklaus]
clemens3 has joined #kisslinux
mahmutov_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
illiliti has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
illiliti has joined #kisslinux
buffet8 has joined #kisslinux
mcpcpc_ has joined #kisslinux
an3223_ has joined #kisslinux
buffet has quit [*.net *.split]
mcpcpc has quit [*.net *.split]
an3223 has quit [*.net *.split]
buffet8 is now known as buffet
<testuser[m]1> Hi
<illiliti> hi
noocsharp has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
Uks2 has quit [Quit: Byee]
Uks2 has joined #kisslinux
midfavila-laptop has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
smartin has joined #kisslinux
<illiliti> well, at least awk has primitives like arrays
<illiliti> in sh, you have untyped variables, functions with globals by default and useless pseudo-array $@
<illiliti> sh is PITA for complex tasks
riteo has joined #kisslinux
<riteo> hiiii!
<riteo> I finally almost recovered from the soymilk accident
<riteo> 8 June 2021 18:24 PM - The soymilk accident
<testuser[m]1> Nice
<riteo> gosh my mechanical keyboard is great but has like a weird plate in between all switches that's like, non removable without extensive desoldering afaict
<riteo> I'm seriously planning to get in the future a better one
riteo has quit [Quit: Lost terminal]
riteo has joined #kisslinux
<riteo> Cellphone riteo here, I have no idea how it reacted but I shut down my pc since I removed its keyboard forgetting irc on. If I pinged out, I didn't crash
<riteo> I thought I would stay more but oh well
<riteo> cya later!
riteo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
gtms has joined #kisslinux
psydroid has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer]
testuser[m]1 has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
E5ten[m] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
rgybmc[m] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
jstnas has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
konimex has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
testuser[m] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
testuser[m] has joined #kisslinux
psydroid has joined #kisslinux
E5ten[m] has joined #kisslinux
konimex has joined #kisslinux
rgybmc[m] has joined #kisslinux
testuser[m]1 has joined #kisslinux
jstnas has joined #kisslinux
illiliti has quit [Quit: leaving]
schillingklaus has joined #kisslinux
V has quit [Quit: We're here. We're queer. Connection reset by peer]
V has joined #kisslinux
gtms has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
mahmutov_ has joined #kisslinux
chaihron_ has joined #kisslinux
schillingklaus has quit [*.net *.split]
chaihron has quit [*.net *.split]
midfavila has quit [*.net *.split]
midfavila has joined #kisslinux
<midfavila> what do you guys think of my sick meme
<omanom> the gnome is a nice touch for sure
<midfavila> oh what the fuck
<midfavila> ytprivate is forcing JS now
<midfavila> and it's because someone launched a DDoS against them
<midfavila> this is why we can't have nice things!
phoebos[m] has joined #kisslinux
yamchah2 has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
yamchah2 has joined #kisslinux
<omanom> a form of tragedy of the commons
<omanom> once something hits a certain threshold of "popularity", you get shit like that
<midfavila> "computer? engage gatekeeping. fairness limiters off."
<omanom> i mean, yeah essentially. if there's absolutely no gatekeeping you end up with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September
<omanom> sometimes that is good, sometimes that is bad
<midfavila> i would say it's mostly bad >.>;
<midfavila> all these fuckin redditors
<midfavila> so I just found 392kbps audio... on a synthwave mix. of all the places to encounter it...
<midfavila> i've never actually seen a bitrate that high before
omanom1 has joined #kisslinux
omanom has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
omanom1 is now known as omanom
smartin1 has joined #kisslinux
mcpcpc has joined #kisslinux
smartin has quit [*.net *.split]
mcpcpc_ has quit [*.net *.split]
clemens3 has quit [*.net *.split]
necromansy has quit [*.net *.split]
smartin1 is now known as smartin
clemens3 has joined #kisslinux
<midfavila> so
<midfavila> today in "what the fuck is this shit"
<midfavila> apparently, when performing calculations in C with constants, it will treat them as regular ints
<midfavila> even if the result will be stored in, say, a long
<midfavila> . -.
<midfavila> this is, of course, not mentioned anywhere in K&R
<midfavila> at least nowhere I've read yet
<midfavila> this means that powl(2, 64)-1 is valid, but (2*2*2*2...*2)-1 is not
<zenomat> on the topic of k&r, I have been thinking of buying it. do you recommend it?
<midfavila> i mean, I've learned a lot from just the first chapter
mahmutov_ has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
<midfavila> if you can get a decent quality copy for cheap, go for it
<midfavila> otherwise, you can always get it for free
<dilyn> it's the ansi c bible
<midfavila> :^)
<zenomat> dilyn: yeah, that was part of my consideration
<zenomat> alright, i'll take a look, thanks
<omanom> midfavila does that happen with const doubles too?
<midfavila> probably. I haven't experimented with const
<omanom> oh you mean like "literally" the number 2 as opposed to an int var with value 2
<omanom> i'm slow on the uptake sorry, lol
<midfavila> yes, literally
<omanom> in python2, integer literals result in an integer. in python3, it defaults to a float result unless you use '//' instead of '/'. multiplication depends on whether any of the operands is a float
<omanom> fun stuff
<june> midfavila: if you want a constant to be a long, suffix it with L
<midfavila> yeah, I know that now
<zenomat> i found out, that there is a linux user group in my city and I am tempted to go there, but introvert intensifies...^^
<midfavila> i would at least give it a shot
<midfavila> i'm sure people will be interested if you start talking about KISS
<zenomat> yeah, i guess. i always was kinda bummed because there was nobody around to talk about linux
<zenomat> im sure they will be super stoked when they hear from my hipster distro
<midfavila> i wish my city had a LUG
<midfavila> instead I have to deal with you nerds
<midfavila> >:c
<june> ime you find better people to talk about computers with online than irl
<midfavila> yeah
<midfavila> it's the same with any topic
<zenomat> that doesnt mean there isnt potential. its just that there are a lot more people connected to the internet, than for example in a city
<zenomat> so it is easier to find likeminded people and a space where everybody hangs out
<acheam> Yeah I only have 2 friends who can somewhat accurately even say what Linux is
<acheam> nobody I know cares about free software :(
<june> they probably have better things to care about :P
<acheam> :(
<rio6> I sometimes forget the word kiss has a meaning irl
<acheam> lol
<zenomat> i got one friend who just got into linux, and one teacher, with whom I rarley have contact, otherwise noone around me uses linux
<testuser[m]1> No one's got an android phone ?
<zenomat> ...
<zenomat> not talking about that linux
<zenomat> imo android doesnt count
<june> it's ok it will be replaced with fuchsia
<kiedtl> fuchsia?
<kiedtl> Oh, Google's latest shiny new way to show ads
<midfavila> it's their nex-
<midfavila> yeah
<midfavila> it's supposed to replace chromeOS too
<kiedtl> mmm, it's shipped with Nest already
<kiedtl> that's some swift progress
<kiedtl> and it's a microkernel, so nobody can hack adware into the adware
<midfavila> i'm being bullied about my indentation style aaaa ;w;
mahmutov_ has joined #kisslinux
<omanom> is there a C equivalent for python's black?
<testuser[m]1> Clang-format
<testuser[m]1> I guess
<midfavila> >using clang
<midfavila> s m h
<testuser[m]1> I use zstd too
<midfavila> how unbased can you get
<midfavila> next thing I know you'll be using sway
<testuser[m]1> Also chromium
<testuser[m]1> Sway too
* midfavila vomits
<midfavila> do you at least spare yourself the pain of systemd and the GNU tools
<testuser[m]1> Yes
<testuser[m]1> Only gnugrep
<midfavila> then there is some small sliver of hope left for you after all
<kiedtl> midfavila: what indentation do you use?
<midfavila> right now it's just a single "level" of indentation every time a loop begins or there's an opening brace
<midfavila> so like, void main()\n{\n for(...;...;...)\n {\n stuff;\n^H^H^H}\n^H^H^H}
<midfavila> if that makes sense
<midfavila> i also apply that to conditionals
<midfavila> if(foo==bar)\n baz(bar)\n^H^H^Helse\n baz(foo)
<midfavila> i'm used to writing lisp programs in a similar manner
<june> smh there's a reason they call the one true brace style the one true brace style
<midfavila> okay,
<midfavila> but,
<midfavila> have you considered
<midfavila> that that's just like
<midfavila> your opinion?
<june> it's not, that's what everyone calls it
<midfavila> people also call python a good language
<midfavila> this, of course, doesn't make it a true statement
<testuser[m]1> It's true mid
<midfavila> lies
<june> you're reading K&R and believing everything else they say but not their indentation style
<midfavila> i'm reading K&R and beliving what's been shown because the only thing they've shown has been indepedently verifiable objective fact about C
<midfavila> aside from the indentation, which they explicitly state is personal preference
* midfavila shrugs
<kiedtl> jeez, why would you choose to die on that hill
<kiedtl> just use what's the preferred style for C
<kiedtl> or any language
<kiedtl> I prefer tabs, but there's a reason I don't use it when writing Zig or Python
<june> there isn't really a preferred style... there are definitely unfavoured styles though :P
<kiedtl> ^^
<midfavila> kiedtl, gamers don't die, they respawn
* midfavila dabs
<kiedtl> either tabs or 4 spaces are good for indentation
<midfavila> as long as you don't mix them...
<june> tabs is a hill I will die on :D
<midfavila> tabs are lame because they aren't always 4 spaces
<kiedtl> tabs are lame because they aren't always 8 spaces
<midfavila> as long as we can agree that they're lame
<kiedtl> though that's probably a good thing
<kiedtl> you can redefine what a tab is in your editor
<kiedtl> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<kiedtl> I don't care, to be honest
<midfavila> some editors
<kiedtl> I choose to lose sleep over other matters
<june> it is a good thing -- for accessibility
<midfavila> but if you can redefine what a tab is... wouldn't it still be inserting spaces? just x number of them?
<midfavila> as opposed to a literal tab
<june> no, it's a display setting
<midfavila> ew
<kiedtl> midfavila: you can do that with vim
<kiedtl> expandtab or something
<midfavila> idc about vim
<kiedtl> and tabwidth
<june> midfavila do you ever react to anything with something other than a pointless remark like "ew"?
<midfavila> only on mondays
<june> do you ever use your brain to consider what is being proposed?
<midfavila> when I've not already made up my mind, yup.
<june> so you just choose to ignore all further information once you've made a decision
<midfavila> ultimately, I write my programs in the way I choose, because I'm the one writing them
<midfavila> if I want to contribute to another project, I'll use their formatting guidelines
<midfavila> also, when it comes to the "but my editor lets me change how tabs are displayed!" - I don't really care. I work with plain ASCII in xterm. that's totally irrelevant to me, and programs that use tabs fly off the edge of my terminal
<kiedtl> Fair enough. I just hope you'll reconsider that position if others want to contribute as well.
<midfavila> literal tabs in xterm are eight spaces, which is far too much
<kiedtl> ...which you can change
<midfavila> I cannot.
<kiedtl> Yes, you can.
<midfavila> Have *you* used tine?
<midfavila> because I'm telling you, literal tabs are inserted as literal tabs.
<midfavila> you can change the number of spaces tab inserts, and that's it.
<kiedtl> Ah, I see. My bad.
<midfavila> yeah.
<midfavila> but it's w/e.
<ang> you can change how your terminal displays tabs though
<midfavila> tl;dr use the formatting guidelines of the project
* midfavila shrugs
<ang> but 1 tab = 8 spaces is totally fine too
<ang> been using it for quite a while
<dilyn> tabs are gross
<dilyn> spaces are the way
<midfavila> i like to see the program I'm writing
<june> is everyone in this channel 12
<dilyn> probably
<kiedtl> Yay, dilyn's here to tell us the road to nirvana
<midfavila> if you want to use tabs for muh 'cessibility, june, go for it
<midfavila> but if we're gonna talk about *that*, there are much bigger accessibility issues with modern systems
<kiedtl> june: I ask myself the same question for just about every general-purpose chat channel.
<kiedtl> And this channel is becoming more like a general-purpose chat channel every month.
<ang> if you use tabs, you don't depend on editor features
<dilyn> :v
<midfavila> in editors that don't have the ability to autoindent or insert spaces with tabs, I just...
<midfavila> use the spacebar
<june> midfavila: the ST command in tine controls the width of literal tabs
<midfavila> if so then fair enough
<ang> lol
<kiedtl> >if so then fair enough
<kiedtl> but I thought you made up your mind already?
<midfavila> i'm still not going to change. i was proven wrong on one point
<midfavila> and ultimately, i have a preference for spaces over tabs.
<midfavila> if that makes me an evil terrible person then w/e
<june> what makes you terrible is reacting to all differing opinions with "ew" and "gross" and "fuck that"
<testuser[m]1> Anything that isn't 30 years old is garbage
<midfavila> shockingly, I don't do that with all opinions.
<june> I've yet to see one.
<midfavila> sounds like a you problem.
<ang> man, a good ol' tabs vs spaces debate really gets the best out of people
<midfavila> wait until we talk about endianness
<dilyn> I think we're all pretty much on the same page with endianness
<dilyn> the smaller the better
<kiedtl> blefescu heretics are trash
<kiedtl> banish the big-endian heathen
<midfavila> eugh, I need to tinker with my router's DNS settings... sometimes it takes two or three requests to get a response
<midfavila> it's always DNS that causes problems
june has left #kisslinux [#kisslinux]
<kiedtl> :v
<dilyn> even when you don't think it's dns
<midfavila> display flickering? DNS
<dilyn> believe it or not
<dilyn> DNS
<midfavila> input latency? DNS
<midfavila> missing milk for your cereal? DNS
<acheam> a bit behind in the conversation, however I just switched to using 4 space
<acheam> mostly just for consistency
<acheam> but I don't want to relaunch the conversation
<acheam> i regret my potentially provocative statment
<midfavila> you don't use tabs!!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!
<midfavila> that's okay, because that's your personal preference
<acheam> thank you, mid
<testuser[m]1> acheam: https://viewsourcecode.org/snaptoken/kilo/ stumbled upon this, maybe you find it useful
<midfavila> kilo is interesting
<acheam> testuser[m]1: thank you!
<midfavila> hmm. I should probably work through that once I'm done with K&R
<acheam> why dont you just write some software?
<acheam> get started on that calendar program
<midfavila> because I have poor self-esteem and feel that I'm incapable of writing useful software until I've reached an arbitrarily high bar
<midfavila> if you want the honest answer
<acheam> oh
<midfavila> the "mid" answer is "because I'm lazy"
<acheam> i think you should just do it. it doesn't matter if its useful to other people, just to you
<acheam> heck it doesn't even have to be useful to you
<acheam> just fun
<acheam> something something the journey not the destination
<midfavila> if I can't read the language I can't write software. K&R teaches that.
* midfavila shrugs
<midfavila> but I do have some projects lined up.
<acheam> is it weird that I can identify programs based on the coil whine it makes launching?
<acheam> like, I hear one pattern, and I know thats firefox
<midfavila> not really
<acheam> I hear another, and I know its emacs
<midfavila> it makes a lot of sense
<acheam> I can hear a gtk program segfaulting before it actually does
<acheam> or at least, chorizo
<midfavila> i mean, it's just coil whine from your CPU, right?
<midfavila> or something else?
<acheam> im not sure tbh
<acheam> it could be from the ssd
<midfavila> i've had whine from my CPU and been able to tell what's going on based off that
<midfavila> it's why I have xosview in my FVWM config
<midfavila> makes it super easy to tell what's going on at a glance
<acheam> xosview?
<midfavila> ancient system monitor program
<midfavila> can handle memory (including slab, swap, etc), CPUs (load, average over time, individual threads...), arbitrary network interfaces, disk access, and more
<midfavila> it's a really awesome little trinket
<acheam> hm nice
<midfavila> i have it packaged, if you want to try it
<midfavila> i think it works on BSD and the proprietary unices, even, which is neato
<testuser[m]1> I just start writing stuff without knowing anything, looking up "how to do xyz" as i need
<midfavila> i should probably start doing that, but I always feel like a dumbass when I do
<acheam> thats my style too
<acheam> usually leads to shitty code
<acheam> but I learn for the next time
<midfavila> i'd rather spend time studying the documentation until I'm comfortable with the system as a whole, but I need to work on being able to just jump in
humky has joined #kisslinux
petrolblue has joined #kisslinux
petrolblue has left #kisslinux [#kisslinux]
chaihron_ is now known as chaihron
<dilyn> arguably the best way to learn C is just to simply pick a simple problem you have and solve it
<midfavila> for sure
<midfavila> the problem there is that any problems I have are easier to solve in shell than C
<dilyn> working through K&R seems more... hm. Theoretically motivated. ANSI C is nice and all, but so limiting that learning *that* instead is like refusing to learn about calculus until you've mastered multiplication
<midfavila> ...er... is arithmetic not a prerequisite for calculus?
<dilyn> eh
<dilyn> but I mean more like "I must memorize these multiplication tables in their entirety before I behold the almighty integral"
<midfavila> Oh. Well, that's fair
<midfavila> i don't approach K&R in that way
<midfavila> ...honestly, I think multiplication tables are kind of stupid...
<dilyn> lol
<dilyn> they are. addition is the way
<midfavila> well, I mean, just teach someone a proper strategy for multiplication
<dilyn> yes
<dilyn> addition
<midfavila> well, yes
<midfavila> I'm only using K&R to learn fundamental principles
noocsharp has joined #kisslinux
<midfavila> https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=gkLvpt9Z3fA sotd suggestion acheam
ChanServ changed the topic of #kisslinux to: KISS Linux | https://k1sslinux.org | /msg zr for kisslinux/* cloaks | logs: https://k1sslinux.org/irc#2.0 | thing of the day: https://vid.puffyan.us/watch?v=gkLvpt9Z3fA
<acheam> midfavila:
<midfavila> tenk u
<midfavila> the protomen are really good imo
<acheam> are they made by protonmail?
<midfavila> nope.
sand_gosh has joined #kisslinux
<sand_gosh> Anyone with a steam solution in kiss?
<midfavila> chroot or appimage/flatpak
<midfavila> there's no way to run steam natively on musl kiss
gtms has joined #kisslinux
<acheam> bear in mind that appimages require glibc, and flatpaks require pulseaudio
<acheam> a chroot is the most KISS way
<midfavila> ...oh, right, I forgot that appimages don't actually include what you need to run the program
<midfavila> *nice packaging format guys*
<sand_gosh> I do chroot
<sand_gosh> But proton isnt work well
<sand_gosh> Only run natives
<midfavila> proton is pretty taxing under the best of circumstances
<midfavila> you might be better off installing a minimal gkiss alongside your main system, or something
<midfavila> and then reboot into that for games.
* midfavila shrugs
<sand_gosh> You mean a dualboot kiss musl and kiss glibc?
<midfavila> Yeah.
<sand_gosh> Yeah this is a good idea
an3223_ has quit [Quit: leaving]
humky has quit [Quit: Leaving]
smartin has quit [Quit: smartin]
<rio6> does the glibc compat thing from alpine work on kiss
<rio6> oh it's actually from adelie
<rio6> never used it but looks interesting
<dilyn> I think I used it for one thing one time
<dilyn> probably works... mostly okay
schillingklaus has joined #kisslinux
schillingklaus has quit [Quit: schillingklaus]
midfavila-laptop has joined #kisslinux
riteo has joined #kisslinux
<riteo> Hiiii!
<riteo> Stuff: done
<riteo> Soymilk: removed
<midfavila> shitpost mode: engaged
<riteo> always
<midfavila> welcome back, commander
<riteo> thanks!
<acheam> exciting news from Dylan's gh
<midfavila> owo?
<riteo> dylan?
<riteo> YES
<midfavila> Nice.
<riteo> me rn:
<riteo> s/me/#kisslinux/
<midfavila> fresh 2007 memes
<riteo> only the best for dylan's official update
<acheam> I wonder how this compares to quark
<midfavila> hmm
<midfavila> i wouldn't mind writing an httpd
<midfavila> i feel like it would be a fantastic exercise, if nothing else
<acheam> midhttpd
<midfavila> mhd
<riteo> yes
<midfavila> i name my programs like I name my variables
<acheam> best webserver is cat behind inetd
<riteo> btw is it public domain too?
<acheam> I'd assume so?
<riteo> does that thing of top ofo the source code count as a license?
<riteo> s/ofo/of/
<midfavila> >license: public domain except corporations can't use or contribute to it
<riteo> time to make the MPL
<midfavila> already a thing
<midfavila> and it sucks
<riteo> really?
<midfavila> yes
<midfavila> mozilla public license
<midfavila> aka
<riteo> FUCK
<midfavila> "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO THOSE ARE MY COLORED PENCIL DRAWINGS!!!"
<riteo> bruh
<riteo> what about the MID license?
<midfavila> ml
<midfavila> we've only got three letters to work with, here
<riteo> exactly
<riteo> MIT -> MID
<midfavila> if I *were* to write a license, it would probably be somewhere between BSD and CC, with the added clause of "corporations bad"
<dilyn> don't we already have enough shitpost meme licenses
<midfavila> no
<riteo> never
<midfavila> the collection must grow
<midfavila> expand
<riteo> absolutely
<midfavila> bloat
<riteo> please expand license
<midfavila> ^H^H^H^H^Hinnovate:tm: and synergize:r:
<riteo> we really need a license that somehow uses docker/containers in its logic
<midfavila> "this software can only be redistributed in binary form via containers"
<riteo> lmao yes
<midfavila> oh boy, I get to use my second library in K&R now!!!
<midfavila> stdio.h *and* ctype.h
<riteo> absolutely crazy
<midfavila> so many options, I might just lose track of them all
<riteo> that's way too much header right there
<midfavila-laptop> it's like
<midfavila-laptop> header*2
<riteo> too much
<riteo> if we allow this what will happen next? 3 headers?
<midfavila-laptop> 30000
<riteo> noooooo you don't understand mid
<midfavila-laptop> at that point I'll just start using python
<midfavila-laptop> import solution from stdlib
<riteo> you can't reuse code
<riteo> you must write everything from scratch
<riteo> imagine using a kernel you didn't write
<riteo> we need midOS
<midfavila-laptop> i mean
<midfavila-laptop> you say that jokingly, but I'm going to get to a point where that's probably going to be a thing
<midfavila-laptop> let's just say that if I could I would
<riteo> cool!
<riteo> I heard you talking about your ideal OS before, it'd be interesting to see that become a reality!
<riteo> talking about OSes, I'm still curious on how plan9's famous biridectional pipes work
<midfavila-laptop> my ideal OS would probably just be MP/M with a super-simple GUI and a distributed file system
<riteo> I looked at it on wikipedia and stumbled out on a purple link to S-100 buses
<riteo> the circle completes
<midfavila-laptop> well yeah
<midfavila-laptop> MP/M runs on S-100 systems
<midfavila-laptop> it's just a multitasking CP/M
<riteo> cool
<midfavila-laptop> as long as I have a basic IPv4 networking stack, at *least* IDE, USB, RJ45, RS232 serial, and PS/2, and a simple multitasking OS, I'm good.
<riteo> I still don't get why people don't use ps/2 anymore for at least the keyboard
<midfavila-laptop> it's fragile
<riteo> oh
<riteo> good point
<midfavila-laptop> that's about it, I think
<midfavila-laptop> i honestly can't come up with any other reason why you wouldn't use it...
an3223 has joined #kisslinux
<midfavila-laptop> i mean, on modern systems, it's even hotpluggable, a lot of the time.
<midfavila-laptop> only reason I'd want USB on my perfect machine is because I need some way to interface with modern equipment
<riteo> well that's unevitable
<riteo> since you love/have old stuff, do you use ps/2?
<midfavila-laptop> if my current keyboard supported it, I would
<midfavila-laptop> alas, my current keyboard uses an RJ-11 connector and a terminal protocol
<midfavila-laptop> so I have to use a soarer's converter over USB
<riteo> interesting
<midfavila-laptop> ...although if I was going to be building a system from scratch, I'd probably just integrate a keyboard controller for said protocol...
<midfavila-laptop> honestly, I like the idea of a locking connector for input devices
<riteo> yeah that makes sense
<midfavila-laptop> input and output should be locked to the system
<midfavila-laptop> so that they can't accidentally be removed
<riteo> yeah I agree
<midfavila-laptop> just like, simple VGA-style thumbscrews is enough
<midfavila-laptop> or DP-style clips
<midfavila-laptop> but something like HDMI makes me want to commit a crime
<riteo> yeah I agree
<riteo> I still haven't got which is the corpo connector and which is the free-er one
<midfavila-laptop> HDMI
<midfavila-laptop> VGA is basically public domain, and DVI and DP are both open standards, afaik
<riteo> oh cool
<midfavila-laptop> i prefer DVI, just because it *only* handles video
<midfavila-laptop> but alas, video cards only have HDMI and DP now
<riteo> eh, the idea of a media cable makes sense IMO
<midfavila-laptop> just use RJ45 at that point
<midfavila-laptop> in fact, video-over-RJ45 is a thing
<riteo> well, RJ45 has like, what, 8 pins?
<midfavila-laptop> it's called DISPLAYport, not mediaport. >:c
<midfavila-laptop> idek riteo
<midfavila-laptop> i think it's about that
<midfavila-laptop> but it seems to work when it's used
<riteo> today's the day
<riteo> it's my birthday
<midfavila-laptop> oh. grats.
<midfavila-laptop> you are winrar
<riteo> winrar released the 22th of april mid
<riteo> I'm not winrar
<midfavila-laptop> you are now
<riteo> wow
<riteo> cool
<riteo> thanks btw
<midfavila-laptop> np
<midfavila-laptop> enjoy being proprietary
<riteo> always do
<riteo> anyways, getting back on point
<riteo> a specialized connector for media makes sense
<midfavila-laptop> i disagree
<midfavila-laptop> "media" is far too broad of a term
<midfavila-laptop> the needs of audio are different from the needs of video are different from the needs of network data
<riteo> mh
<riteo> I think you're right
<riteo> although a solution like usb-c is very cool
<midfavila-laptop> eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh
<midfavila-laptop> i don't like usb-c
<riteo> mh, why?
<midfavila-laptop> the main feature (symmetricality) is trivial at best
<midfavila-laptop> and it can cause weird issues
<midfavila-laptop> i saw someone post about how their nintendo switch charged their laptop, for example
<midfavila-laptop> instead of the other way 'round
<riteo> oh that symmetricality
<midfavila-laptop> well, the physical shape is like
<midfavila-laptop> whatever
<midfavila-laptop> how about you just pull the machine out and plug it in that way
<riteo> eh, IMO the issue is that they want to keep somehow backwards compatibility with something already pretty complex
<riteo> I mean, just look at USB2, ben eater recently made a video of him analyzing it
<midfavila-laptop> there's a reason I don't like USB
<riteo> I heard some like ago about how complex the host contracting (I can't remember its proper name) uses an extremely complicated protocol
<riteo> like, so complex that it required a specialized proprietary and undocumented chip
<midfavila-laptop> wouldn't surprise me
<riteo> usb wants to do a complex thing, I get it, but they're trying to transition from a model to a completely different one
<riteo> before there was like, A and B to avoid connecting slaves to slaves or hosts to hosts
<riteo> now they're completely switching from that model through a complex contracting between the two
<riteo> oh I don't know if you knew that, but everything except usb-c is now deprecated from usb 3.2 onwards
<midfavila-laptop> i wouldn't know
<midfavila-laptop> that's gross
<midfavila-laptop> i barely use USB as is, so I don't keep up with it
<riteo> yes, get ready to put extremely complex logic through proprietary chips into every device using usb
<midfavila-laptop> joy.
<nerditup> midfavila-laptop: what do you use instead of USB?
<midfavila-laptop> printer is parallel, low-bandwidth devices are RS-232
<midfavila-laptop> storage is networked
<midfavila-laptop> only time I use USB is *specifically* for loading up a thumb drive for a friend
<riteo> how do you have a parallel port?
<midfavila-laptop> and even then, if they have a hard drive, I just use eSATA
<midfavila-laptop> riteo add-in card
<nerditup> Is the USB driver in the kernel proprietary?
<riteo> midfavila-laptop: oh cool
<midfavila-laptop> almost assuredly not, nerditup
<nerditup> Right? That's what I thought
<noocsharp> by definition nothing in the kernel is proprietary
<nerditup> Its strange to me to have a strong stance against USB lol
<nerditup> Curious if I should also be concerned about something in particular or it's just a preference
<riteo> usb is undoubtly messed up
<riteo> is it needed? Yes
<riteo> could it be better? Absolutel
<riteo> s/Absolutel/Absolutely/
<nerditup> kissbot? RIPS
<nerditup> s/RIPS/RIP
<riteo> also it wants to do a very very complex thing
<riteo> noocsharp: oh nice, ben eater videos!
<riteo> his videos are just gold
<noocsharp> one of the issues with usb is that the keyboard protocol doesn't allow it to push data to the master device
<noocsharp> the master device has to poll
<riteo> well that's the whole point of usb
<riteo> afaict it polls every device one at a time
<noocsharp> i don't see how polling is advantageous
<riteo> well, it's a bus
<midfavila-laptop> i imagine it reduces contention on the line
<riteo> yeah
<noocsharp> ah
<riteo> I guess too
<midfavila-laptop> plus, a broken device wouldn't lock up every other port on the bus
<riteo> yeah
<midfavila-laptop> idk though
<midfavila-laptop> i'm talking out of my ass here
<riteo> oh same thing
<riteo> but I agree with what you say, I guess that's the reason too
<riteo> thinking about it, talking in an extremely ignorant manner, what was the issue with older devices, ignoring non-ubiquisity?
<midfavila-laptop> bandwidth
<riteo> s/ubiquisity/ubiquicity/
<midfavila-laptop> RS-232 is extremely slow
<riteo> I mean, if older ports are slower it makes sense nowadays
<midfavila-laptop> and pushing analog I/O faster and faster, or adding more lines, results in EI
<riteo> but like, before usb took off, what was its advantadge?
<midfavila-laptop> that it was a universal standard.
<midfavila-laptop> that's... basically it.
<riteo> oh
<midfavila-laptop> its speed and ubiquity are its only real traits. well, and the ability to also deliver power
<riteo> for universal do you mean like, what it can do or what it was meant for?
<riteo> because I'm pretty sure that serial/parallel ports could do everything too
<midfavila-laptop> you could, in theory
<midfavila-laptop> but serial mice aren't the best
<midfavila-laptop> i've used them
<midfavila-laptop> idk dude
<noocsharp> also think usb can configure itself
<midfavila-laptop> it's too hot for me to think much
<noocsharp> s/think/i think/
<riteo> I see
<riteo> don't worry about the thinking, if you can't right now it isn't a problem
<riteo> it happens to everybody
gtms has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
illiliti has joined #kisslinux
<dilyn> USB is literally the universal serial bus. It was supposed to be a replacement for connectors that could be implemented anywhere you would want an interface and wanted to guarantee that anyone who cares about their shit working on any device would support it
<dilyn> lo and behold we end up with USB A/B/C, plus the new connector shape
<riteo> wait, isn't c the new connector shape?
<dilyn> big issue right now is we basically stratified the standard, and it's not very universal anymore
<dilyn> C can come in the old form factor as well
<midfavila-laptop> c is the new shape...
<dilyn> I mean yes
<dilyn> but who's calling USB C by its proper name?
<midfavila-laptop> ...me?
<dilyn> kek
<riteo> but you said usb A/B/C
<dilyn> right okay pedants SO
<riteo> dilyn: also, IMO it wants to stay retrocompatible way too much
<midfavila-laptop> it's not pedantic
<midfavila-laptop> A/B/C are form factors
<dilyn> SURE MID
<midfavila-laptop> 1/2/3/4 are protocols
<dilyn> FINE
<midfavila-laptop> chill
<midfavila-laptop> i didn't realize you were so passoinate about serial busses
<dilyn> I was literally talking about form factors
<midfavila-laptop> >C can come in the old form factor
<dilyn> sorry that I like many simply conflate USB C == 3
<midfavila-laptop> ...well, that's stupid
<riteo> oh you meant that
<dilyn> smh
<dilyn> It's not stupid, its lackadaisical.
<dilyn> the one fuckin time I'm not super specific and clear about a thing and somehow the world ends
<midfavila-laptop> the world didn't end, I just corrected you
<midfavila-laptop> go drink a soy latte and calm down
<midfavila-laptop> like fr lmao
<dilyn> your correction is just in bad faith
<dilyn> but it's fine
<midfavila-laptop> ...not really?
<midfavila-laptop> you were flat-out wrong
<dilyn> jesus christ dude
dilyn has quit [Quit: Connection closed]
<midfavila-laptop> if I wanted to be an asshole I'd be a lot more direct than "but C is a form factor..."
<midfavila-laptop> smh
zorkmed has joined #kisslinux
<nerditup> I enjoyed that video midfavila-laptop
<nerditup> the first one you linked
<midfavila-laptop> the music?
<riteo> IIRC it was noocsharp to link it
<riteo> yeah it was them
<nerditup> my bad, I need to stop IRC'ing when tired
<riteo> no worries
<midfavila-laptop> ^
<midfavila-laptop> i just need to stop IRC'ing in general, tbh
<midfavila-laptop> spend way too much time on here
<riteo> I do a bit of everything
<riteo> I like usually keep irc on one screen and do everything else on the other
<midfavila-laptop> i just have a bad habit of flicking my eyes to my IRC client constantly
<midfavila-laptop> so it's hard to focus
<riteo> if you got notifications on just look at it when you have time to chat
<midfavila-laptop> no dbus
<riteo> you don't need dbus for notifications
<nerditup> ^ this is true
<riteo> there's herbe
* midfavila-laptop shrugs
<riteo> just turn on notifications for your name and forget about it when until you can chat
<midfavila-laptop> i'll take a look ig
<riteo> it's very very KISSy
<riteo> it even got dylan's way of sharing patches on github
<riteo> oh and it's already packaged
Uks2 has quit [Quit: Byee]
Uks2 has joined #kisslinux
zorkmed has quit [Quit: ]