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<Guest6>
Hi there, does someone have an example of a REST API created with caveman2 and/or clack? Or event a demo website to understand how to use routes, manage cookies etc
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<prxq>
What's the easiest and fastest way to read a binary file into memory in one swoop? Loop over read byte seems suboptimal....
<jackdaniel>
read-sequence
<hayley>
Loop over READ-SEQUENCE.
<hayley>
Or ALEXANDRIA:READ-FILE-INTO-BYTE-VECTOR
<jackdaniel>
but keep in mind that you may want to limit the length (unless you know that file has some reasonable size)
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<Shinmera>
prxq: mmap
<prxq>
hayley: that's the one. Thanks!
<prxq>
jackdaniel: right, thanks
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<prxq>
Shinmera: that's the "mathematician in a hot air baloon" answer :-)
<Shinmera>
Eh? It is fast *and* easy.
<Shinmera>
(mmap:mmap path) done.
<prxq>
Shinmera: you are not kidding? :-) What happens when that goes out of scope. GC closes it?
<Shinmera>
It doesn't of course.
<Shinmera>
But you can use mmap:with-mmap instead to close it.
<Shinmera>
or munmap if it's not in dynamic-extent
<Shinmera>
Either way point being it's not hard, and it is definitely the fastest.
<Shinmera>
thereby fulfilling your constraints the best
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<prxq>
Shinmera: ok, thanks.
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<jackdaniel>
I think that it is worth noting that using mmap involves probably cffi and ties you to posix (and perhaps windows), i.e that wan't work on mezzano and other exotic platforms
<jackdaniel>
(like wasm runtime)
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<prxq>
it also leaves you with a handful of live wires to play around. Good for a boring rainy day :-)
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<Shinmera>
sure, but those were not part of the mentioned constraints
<Shinmera>
it would already be ruled out if you said "into a vector" rather than "into memory"
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<jackdaniel>
I see that you are the 'technically correct is the best' kind of person (nothing wrong with that ,)
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<Shinmera>
not really, I just gave an answer to the literal question and nobody ever reformulated it to be what the actual constraints are.
<Shinmera>
though this did remind me that I really wish it were possible to wrap a vector around an arbitrary memory region, without having to involve the heavy weight of the extensible sequences protocol.
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<prxq>
does anyone have experience with the blob datatype in conjunction with mito?
<ixelp>
GitHub - death/marray: Memory mapped files as Lisp arrays
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<Shinmera>
_death: ah, yeah I figured splitting pages would also be possible, but it seems quite excessive to have to keep an entire page for the header. That, and it shill won't allow fun stuff like offsetting into a packed region
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<Shinmera>
Do not talk to me about displaced arrays
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<_death>
right.. if one puts time into it, some of the limitations described can be removed (so e.g. you could pass :start and :end arguments) which I guess could help in some scenarios.. in my use cases an entire page was insignificant, but of course that's a limitation that's more difficult to remove
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<Shinmera>
I specifically would like to provide some kinda "view" system where an opaque binary blob can be viewed and traversed if you define the data types and the root type to use.
<Shinmera>
This would be very handy to have because de/serialising is rather expensive
<_death>
that could be handy in some specialized situations, but maybe not as often as one would like.. it's reminiscent of the old C programmer mistake of "writing/reading raw objects to/from disk".. https://adeht.org/usenet-gems/info-rep.txt
<_death>
so even if you do define "binary structures" that map easily, at some point you may need to index stuff or maintain some state that's not advantageous to store.. and then you're back to munging/copying
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<drmeister>
Hi Shinmera - I'd like to work with C-style structs of plain-old-data in memory from Common Lisp.
<Shinmera>
_death: it happens a *lot* in games.
<_death>
Shinmera: I agree, especially in the old days when portability wasn't a goal
<Shinmera>
Especially more advanced use relies on declaring memory layouts for data buffers on the GPU. Uploading that data requires having the same layout on the CPU, then pointing GL to it. You can even mmap share it to avoid copying altogether.
<Shinmera>
Having to "serialise" all that data to memory every frame *sucks*
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<drmeister>
I want to say here is a memory layout of a C-style struct and here is a pointer to it - let me read and write the fields.
<_death>
in many domains where performance is critical there are often advantages to zero-copy (or dumb bitblt)
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<_death>
drmeister: but then you still have an issue with tagged memory and indirection
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<drmeister>
What issue with tagged memory?
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<_death>
drmeister: for example a Lisp array might need a header, or a number might need to be boxed
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<_death>
cffi for example requires a type for mem-aref an cannot bound check and needs to translate between representations.. maybe that's one reason you're working on clasp?
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<Shinmera>
well the idea is that whatever system would ultimately use cffi underneath, just also already infer the type needed from the known surrounding type.
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<Shinmera>
at least that's what I'm thinking about
<_death>
wouldn't that imply repeated translation?
<Shinmera>
repeated translation in the sense of having a single mem-ref, sure.
<Shinmera>
*a single mem-ref per read/write
<Shinmera>
I've written a system like that in Trial, but it sucks.
<Shinmera>
Then I wrote another system like that in cl-gltf, but it sucks (though less than trial's)
<Shinmera>
I hope to at some point write one that only sucks a teeny bit :)
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<_death>
there's that mismatch between Lisp land and C land that can be handled by either pulling data to one side of the border (preferably once) or somehow grabbing more of the land by means of low-level implementation programming
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<drmeister>
To do it well I think it will need compiler and runtime support.
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<piotr_>
guys
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<FIlystyn>
how to run external command in lisp and get it's return value, stderr and stdout
<FIlystyn>
hymu ?
<FIlystyn>
don't even answer just tell me it's easy or not
<FIlystyn>
it fits lisp or it does not
<FIlystyn>
I wnat to hear your opinion
<contrapunctus>
FIlystyn: pretty sure UIOP has something for that
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<copec>
_death (re: that link) I get that writing raw objects to disk is almost always wrong for various technical reasons, but I disagree with that author's hardline viewpoint about what amounts to a historic arbitrary abstraction.
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<pjb>
copec: nonetheless, save-lisp-image.
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<_death>
copec: what arbitrary abstraction?
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<copec>
The filesystem was invented because of memory limits and for persistence of moving stuff in and out of memory, but that doesn't make it the only solution. This led to the notion of external and internal data formats
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<pjb>
Of course, as demonstrated by EROS-OS.
<pjb>
Also, assuming you're using only saved images as persistence mechanism, you may still want to keep "not live" aka "serialized" objects in some "database" structure (say a hash-table), instead of live objects, for several reasons. (notably memory compaction).
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<_death>
copec: in information theory, there is already a distinction (source coding vs. channel coding) that recognizes different aims
<copec>
Those distinctions aren't always the same as internal memory object vs representation on filesystem, but just almost always
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<_death>
it's possible that in a very different context there would be no need for a distinction, but I guess Naggum didn't live within that context
<FIlystyn>
are lisp languages similar or cliscp is very differnet ?
<_death>
there's a paper about a persistent CL (UCL+P) that I need to read sometime
<ixelp>
UCL+P - a persistent common lisp | Institutional Repository | J. Willard Marriott Digital Library
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<NotThatRPG>
Is there a consensus on what pattern-matching library one should use?
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<copec>
_death: I think I would ask the original author what his opinion on using raw objects in files only in situ of main memory for the life of the program? (Which applies to save-lisp-image)
<copec>
He would probably emphasize that you want important data to not be orphaned if any whole host of things changes from that point in time
<_death>
copec: that makes sense
<copec>
source vs channel coding is the superior way to think about it, I'll remember that
<_death>
copec: I only mentioned that to note that different aims often lead to different representations, so whether you have to explicitly deal with persistent storage or not is not the only consideration
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<copec>
This is actually very applicable to devops that I do because i'v inherited VMs and containers in the past for which something is dependent on, but would be extremely difficult to reconstruct from scratch, although it is really a problem in the opposite direction
<FIlystyn>
i found my answer ;-)
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<jackdaniel>
NotThatRPG: trivia basically
<NotThatRPG>
Thanks, @jackdaniel -- I haven't been using pattern matching much, but it could really improve my productivity on something I am working on now.
<copec>
Writing your own pattern matcher is step 2 after writing your own lisp
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<NotThatRPG>
My "Common Lisp" is spelled without "not invented here."
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<AadVersteden[m]>
Would it then still be '(My "Common Lisp") or has it then become '(Our "Common Lisp")?
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