jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<copec> My Common Lisp is an Emo band
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<occ> what's Emo band ?
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<hayley> An Eno band with an extra n.
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<phoe> Shinmera: welp yes now I do but then I completely forgot
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<Shinmera> there were some other funny issues like that I came across when I searched open tickets on github.
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<phoe> also welp http://clhs.lisp.se/ seems dead
<ixelp> Common Lisp HyperSpec (TM)
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<phoe> ...wait, it's not!?
<phoe> geez welp don't mind me
<gilberth> phoe: Shameless ad: https://novaspec.org/cl/
<ixelp> Common Lisp Nova Spec
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<Bike> phoe: it's always been pretty laggy
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<phoe> gilberth: amazing
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<OlCe> gilberth: Oh nice!
<jcowan> gilberth: Beautiful, and thank you for using a serif font!
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<gilberth> jcowan: Thanks. And yes, serif is more readable and our screens today have a high enough resolution to display them properly.
<jcowan> The older I get, the more I appreciate serifs. (To say nothing of the stupid I vs. l problem.)
<gilberth> I'm not finished yet. I miss all those \term{...} links. Mostly to the glossary, but not always. I'm not decided yet how to present those.
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<gilberth> The serifs are there to guide your eye.
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<_death> that's cool, is there a plan to add references to issues like clhs does?
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<gilberth> _death: Trouble is: We don't have all the issues. scymtym knows more.
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<yitzi> Its in progress along with https://s-expressionists.github.io/wscl/chap-0.xhtml
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<_death> I see.. personally I use an offline clhs copy w/ emacs, but sometimes resort to grep to find particular text, so the apropos functionality may be useful there
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<gilberth> _death: Feel free to use http://clim.rocks/gilbert/tex/dpans.0.txt ;not perfect but works for greping^Wc-s.
<_death> nice
<gilberth> That's TeXed actually. I made face metrics for the fonts to make them monospace.
<gilberth> Otherwise, my aim is that this Nova Spec of mine works well with w3m, too, so that I can have plain text.
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<gilberth> * fake metrics
<_death> could also make apropos work w/o javascript for the website
<gilberth> That's on my TODO.
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<_death> will there be annotation support like for the clim spec?
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<Equill> gilberth: Nice work! I normally use an offline copy of CLHS, but the apropos feature looks really handy.
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<gilberth> _death: That's my plan as well. However I fear it would be as cozy as with the CLIM spec, which has no safeguards whatsoever.
<gilberth> * it would not be as cozy ;/me needs more coffee.
<gilberth> And I want to add the MOP and perhaps Gray Streams. It should be a one-stop for widely agreed-upon defacto standard things.
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<ldb> good morning
<OlCe> gilberth: That would be perfect, along with the issues.
<OlCe> gilberth: Thanks for this.
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<splittist> maybe a ul.subtoc { list-style: outside none none; } ?
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<gilberth> splittist: Perhaps, I noticed this myself. I'm not yet fine-tuning the CSS. I also consider putting the "subtoc" at a sidebar, if space permits.
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<splittist> gilberth: sure. It takes time to be gorgeous.
<gilberth> Yes. My number one priority was to be typographically close to the original. This is why you find some CLASS="cmtt" etc in the HTML.
<gilberth> I actually work from the DVI files and not from the TeX sources.
<gilberth> Relevant TeX macros are instrumented to emit \special{}s that I can pick up then.
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<ldb> welp, I just rm'ed my dpans convertion project
<ldb> The HTML of CLtL is also produced from DVI, aka: latex2html
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<gilberth> latex2html doesn't work on the DVI.
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<mariari> What tools do people use for common-lisp debugging? I currently know of `STEP' (CCL lacks this), Trace (Sly augmented), Stickers from Sly, and the condition system backtraces. Is there any tools that I'm unaware of and I ought to use?
<jackdaniel> people often recompile target function with something like (when (something-interesting) (break "Something interesting")))
<jackdaniel> s/)))/))
<mariari> I guess I could try that, but that feels a bit poor, though I have done something like that in the past
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<beach> Not really, See the third paper here: http://metamodular.com/SICL/
<ixelp> SICL documents
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<mariari> Thanks beach, I should have looked at your site earlier, I remember your pscyhology of learning essay mentions students not learning how to use a debugger
<beach> mariari: It feels a bit poor because it is. That paper explains that the debugging situation for free Common Lisp implementations is less than optimal.
<beach> mariari: That's true. But in this case, there is no debugger to learn.
<beach> ... unless you get yourself a commercial Common Lisp implementation.
<mariari> that's a shame, I mostly deal with free implementations. One thing I find very annoying is not always getting back line numbers on files that fail to compile with ASDF, it's hard to help colleagues when they get into weird states sometimes when loading a system
<beach> I can't agree more.
<beach> ... but now I need to go fix dinner for my (admittedly small) family. I'll be back tomorrow.
<jackdaniel> mariari: if by chance you use ecl then it works very well with gdb
<mariari> what's awkward, is that I have to look around their stack traces for a good minute to find the file even, then tell them to C-ck it so we get closer to the bug
<mariari> cya beach
<mariari> jackdaniel: I normally don't use ECL, though I do know my codebases are compatible with it however
<mariari> I found out today while playing with STEP that CCL lacks the step macro
<edwlan[m]> If you use sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy to make debug 3 all the time, step will work better
<mariari> edwlan[m]: but this wouldn't affect precompiled code in the image right?
<edwlan[m]> Yeah, you’d have to build a special image for debugging
<mariari> It'd be cool to step through the compiler itself with the tools provided by it, would be a nice way to learn the flow of the compiler
<edwlan[m]> I don’t know if sbcl will build with that restriction
<mariari> in smalltalk they have a simulator mode so you can see how the VM itself runs and debug it in smalltalk
<edwlan[m]> But, sbcl is mostly written in itself so it might be able to build sbcl to step through itself
<edwlan[m]> I think I’ve done this before, but it’s been a while
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<copec> gilberth will you generate an Anki deck for CL symbols for me?
<copec> :-p
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<gilberth> copec: What's an Anki deck?
<copec> Flash card system for memorization https://apps.ankiweb.net/
<ixelp> Anki - powerful, intelligent flashcards
<gilberth> Hmm, when that are flash cards, what should I put on the other side?
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<edwlan[m]> What I’ve wanted is a system I could load that would add the spec information to the DOCUMENTATION
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<gilberth> As mentioned, the Nova Spec works reasonably well with w3m for plain text, so it certainly is possible to generate documentation strings.
<copec> I would probably have just the symbol and have the other side be the usage of it, and a return value if applicable
<copec> otherwise, someone would have to write a question for which the answer would be each symbol, I suppose
<gilberth> copec: Just the signature then? Hmm. Would such a deck be for beginners?
<edwlan[m]> gilberth: yeah, this looks like a useful base for doing what I’d like to se.
<copec> Yeah, so not having to look up the symbols every time to remember, or when sitting waiting in a queue and haven't been programming in a while and reviewing instead of playing a game on my phone :-)
<edwlan[m]> I’m currently using eww and some elisp to cleanup the hyperspec
<gilberth> edwlan[m]: https://novaspec.org/cl/apropos.js ;That's your machine readable index.
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<gilberth> copec: Ok. I keep that in mind and ponder working on providing more useful meta information and/or more semantic HTML.
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<edwlan[m]> gilberth: cool, that uses the sort of JavaScript parse-js can handle
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<jmercouris> Is there a way to know the most popular libraries on Quicklisp?
<jmercouris> I guess one way to do so would be to download a quicklisp dist and see which libraries have the greatest amount of references?
<jmercouris> then I would like to see which functions from those libraries are used the most
<jmercouris> that would help identify what functions are missing from CL
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<edwlan[m]> There’s some quicklisp stats
<edwlan[m]> I think there’s a library in quicklisp for processing them.
<_death> for estimating symbol usage you can use eclector.. example https://github.com/death/formgrep/blob/master/examples/symbol-usage.lisp
<ixelp> formgrep/symbol-usage.lisp at master · death/formgrep · GitHub
<ixelp> GitHub - phoe/quicklisp-stats: Fetches and operates on Quicklisp download statistics.
<jmercouris> _death: Interesting, thank you
<jmercouris> that will be *very* useful
<jmercouris> if I can get it to work 11
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<jmercouris> for those curious: http://dpaste.com/5KGBY4U5G
<ixelp> dpaste: 5KGBY4U5G
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<random-jellyfish> can you modify global variables from reader macros?
<edwlan[m]> I tend to think that third party libraries are usually better than standardized functions
<jmercouris> I have to say the name "chunga" irritates me to no end
<edwlan[m]> Outside of some basics
<edwlan[m]> Standardization is expensive
<jmercouris> seems that so many libraries by edicl annoy me by their names
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