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<ober>
jmercouris: job control would be hard no?
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<jmercouris>
ober: yes
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<White_Flame>
ober: when you save an image, the control stacks & threads get thrown away. Conceptually, the environment and thus the heap is saved.
<White_Flame>
any open sockets, files, dynamic libraries, and any OS process resources like that are lost, too
<White_Flame>
the Lisp handles to those might exist, but they'll all be closed
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<jcowan>
White_Flame: Do you get control before the image is saved and/or after it is restored?
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<White_Flame>
jcowan: what do you mean by "control"?
<White_Flame>
in current models at least, after you load an image, then either the default toplevel starts or you can declare (like in executables) which function should be executed
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<whereiseveryone>
nyxt-shell sounds cool
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<jcowan>
White_Flame: That makes sense.
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<edgar-rft>
facebookresearch? finally a science that sound serious!
<jackdaniel>
I've just realized that it is a pull request that advertises a leak, so perhaps downloading it may not be such a brilliant idea. oh well, it's on HN so it is hard to miss it anyway
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<gilberth>
beach: Well, yes. You can reach me here. Otherwise: Not yet. What do you suggest? Some means to file an issue online? And please change your bookmark to https://novaspec.org/cl/ ;/me should install a 301 handler.
<ixelp>
Common Lisp Nova Spec
<beach>
Oh, OK.
<gilberth>
And what kind of issues? Issues with the spec itself, or issues with my HTML?
<beach>
In the glossary, under "special operator" the figure number is not a link, but it is in the Common Lisp HyperSpec.
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<beach>
And in figure 3.2, "function" is not a link.
<beach>
... and it has a different font.
<gilberth>
beach: Figure numbers are not links yet, indeed. Also I miss linking all the \term{...}s. Which is a bit tricky as sometimes you find more than one link target.
<beach>
Sure. You don't need to explain it to me. Just saying.
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<gilberth>
beach: Same thing. "function" is not a link because, I cannot tell which "function" is meant. I'm working on that.
<beach>
Novaspec looks good otherwise! Congratulations!
<beach>
Yes, I see.
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<gilberth>
Thanks. When I'm finished with dpANS, I plan to render the MOP likewise.
<beach>
Great! Do you know about my MOP site?
<gilberth>
And Gray Streams. Somewhere there is a kind of spec for Gray Streams. That is. Both the MOP and Gray Streams are de facto standard to me.
<beach>
gilberth: I think I just used the available TeX source and copied paragraphs manually.
<gilberth>
Hmm.
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<beach>
Oh, and I added plenty of links.
<gilberth>
Anyhow, I am open to suggestion. However at this point I see myself as just the guy offering some nice online HTML version, not as the one fixing specs. The latter being a can of worms.
<beach>
Sure. I didn't alter the spec. I just added links, sometimes to the Common Lisp HyperSpec, sometimes to CLtL2 as I recall.
<beach>
And I pointed out (in notes) that there are sometimes two sections discussing the same thing, and that the one being looked at is not the best one.
<gilberth>
Ok. I'll see. One step after another. I still need to place more links with the CL spec and implement that glossary sidebar as well as a toc sidebar and make all of that responsive. And there are usability issues with that "apropos" search of mine.
<beach>
Yeah, that will keep you busy for a while.
<gilberth>
And I am looking forward to proof-read the whole damn thing. Ever read the spec cover to cover?
<beach>
Nope. But I can help out.
<beach>
You would compare it to the PDF generated form the TeX sources?
<gilberth>
But as I work from the DVI files, I am pretty confident that I got things right. As with that BNF glitch we recently discussed.
<gilberth>
beach: Yes, I would.
<beach>
Then there is no reason why you would have to do all that work alone.
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<gilberth>
Cool. I come back to you, when I am feeling that the formatting as such is done. That's great! Perhaps I place [issue] links for an easy way to file issues. Like those [annotate] links with the CLIM spec.
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
And I am convinced that others here would help out too.
<gilberth>
Apropos "issue". I still have to figure out how the cope with those "ISSUE" thingies in the spec.
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<beach>
I suppose you are in communication with scymtym on the subject, yes?
<beach>
But I guess his goals are different.
<gilberth>
Actually I am not.
<beach>
The issues were essential for him, especially since we are adding another host of issues in the form of WSCL.
<gilberth>
Thanks for reminding you that my TODO is long.
<gilberth>
* me ; reminding me
<beach>
Heh! Welcome to the club.
<gilberth>
In the end of day, I need to find some way to add to the spec while keeping the original and format it such that you can tell what was added and what is original.
<beach>
I fully understand.
<jackdaniel>
make the spec deep-pink and additions deeper-pink
<gilberth>
moon-child had the idea that I could use my CLISP WASM port that runs in a browser to allow people play with examples online. That would serve a completely different audience than we are. But I guess it would be nice to new-comers to CL to learn about all those functions in an easy and quick way.
<gilberth>
I like the idea, but it is and the very end of my TODO.
<gilberth>
Anyhow, for augmenting the thing, we would need a way to address a part of the spec. That's the tricky one.
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<beach>
Playing with the examples is tricky since many of them are non-conforming.
<gilberth>
Perhaps. And the spec is not a manual.
<beach>
Which reminds me of a big thing on my own TODO list. A Common Lisp reference manual, probably as a web site.
<beach>
Newbies are often not doing well with the standard, and I can understand that. The standard was not written for them primarily.
<gilberth>
beach: You write the thing, I care for the website.
<beach>
I might take you up on that.
<beach>
If I can write pure text and have it presented by someone else, that is ideal for me.
<gilberth>
Same thing as with the CLIM spec. You cannot learn CLIM by the spec. Nor can you learn C by reading the ISO standard.
<beach>
Yeah.
<ober>
there is a CLHS.org org-mode file with plenty of structure
<beach>
ober: But that's just the standard again, yes?
<ober>
yes
<beach>
... presumably with its own translation errors.
<gilberth>
CLtL2 is different. CLtL1 too. It actually is a nice read and I learned CL by reading it. But then I already was a Lisp hacker.
<ober>
.oO(there shall be no additional addendums)
* beach
's (admittedly small) family just announced that dinner is served, so he will be off for the rest of the day.
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<ober>
is sly really better than slime?
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<NotThatRPG>
Anyone have a CL logging library that they really like? Trying to figure out if there's one that's pretty bullet-proof or just a bag of 80% solutions
<jackdaniel>
never felt that I need anything else after learning log4cl
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<NotThatRPG>
@jackdaniel: Thanks for the pointer!
<jackdaniel>
sure
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* Lycurgus
filled out a dumb job application trynna figure out if it was that RPG (IV)
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<Shinmera>
NotThatRPG: Verbose
<Shinmera>
I didn't like log4cl for being overly complicated
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<Shinmera>
I use Verbose in everything that needs logging, so it's pretty well tested.
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<Devon>
Is there something I'm missing here, or does ccl/compiler/nx0.lisp (defun nx-form-constant-p (form env) …) (defun … (declare (type (satisfies nx-form-constant-p) …)) …) deserves at least a warning?
<Devon>
deserves/deserve
<NotThatRPG>
Shinmera: Thanks. Will compare!
* ober
starts list of Shinmera approved packages
<Shinmera>
I made Verbose. It'd be odd if I didn't approve of it at least a little bit.
<Bike>
Devon: my attitude as a compiler writer is that if someone is actually using satisfies, they are beyond my help
<Devon>
LOL
<Bike>
like i guess you could put ina warning for that, but it would be a nontrivial amount of work, and for what?
<Bike>
in a*
<ober>
s/approved/wrote
<Bike>
i wouldn't be surprised if ccl just ignores the declaration.
<Devon>
It obviously does but how hard can it be to check predicateness?
<Shinmera>
It's in CCL. CCL can do whatever magic it wants with it.
<Devon>
Bike: Perhaps the author wrote satisfies as documentation.
<Bike>
Devon: it's not that hard. it requires you to have the function defined in the same compilation unit and for the compiler to record the lambda list, which it might already do for complaining about bad calls
<Bike>
but there are decisions to be made, like whether to actually warn, or to assume that the person knows what they're doing
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<Bike>
and, if the compiler does actually ignore the declaration, the function will never actually be called, so no runtime error will occur
<Bike>
you'd need to put some kind of hook into the type parser to recognize the situation at all, and to only do so in certain contexts, since you don't want a warning if this is a typep call and it's about to err anyway
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<Bike>
or, more likely if you want to check after parsing, you'd need some kind of stage that flits through parsed types looking for bad satisfies
<Bike>
it's not a lot of work, but it's some work. both to write, and for the compiler to do every time it sees a type declaration
<Devon>
Bike: The code generator has (declare (dynamic-extent head) (cons head tail)) in a mapcar speed-up which never looks at tail after setting it to nil. Evidently harmless but looks brittle to me.
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<Bike>
sorry, what?
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<Bike>
is this still about satisfies or are you talking about something else?
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<Devon>
Bike: Never mind, a different file in the same compiler.
<Bike>
i see
<Bike>
to be clear, CCL is not the compiler i'm writing
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<Bike>
i don't think ccl is as strict about type declarations as sbcl is, so this stuff can probably slip through the cracks a bit
<Devon>
Bike: Severely bummed code makes bad examples. I don't think that compiler would compile with safety 3.
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<Bike>
if i remember correctly, ccl is built in itself rather than in another implementation, so if ccl doesn't check type declarations strictly it won't complain about itself
<Bike>
but on the flipside, if it doesn't use those type declarations, it's not going to break anything
<yitzi>
It does do type checking based on :type in class definitions by default though.
<ixelp>
Question about broadcast streams - Pastebin.com
<Bike>
NotThatRPG: i get what i expect, which is output on the terminal and in the file. are you not seeing that, or did you expect something else?
<NotThatRPG>
Bike: No, I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing the output only in the console, and not in the file.
<Bike>
hm, well are you sure results-file is what you think it is?
<Bike>
and that verbose is > 1, and etc debugging stuff. because i'm pretty sure this should output to both
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<char[m]>
Hey Bike , for ctype, why do values types default to &rest t instead of &rest nil?
<NotThatRPG>
Bike: I am *relatively* certain about results file (I print the namestring of the pathname and it's what I expect). Weirdly, I don't see that file even created.
<Bike>
NotThatRPG: well if you don't see the file created something is going wrong outside of this code, which won't create any files
<Bike>
char[m]: because that's how the language semantics do it (see clhs THE mostly)
<Bike>
(the (values integer) (floor 7 2)) is valid code, for instance
<char[m]>
That makes perfect sense. If I want to specify that a function returns a single value I can do (values fixnum &rest nil)?
<Bike>
correct.
<char[m]>
Thanks
<Bike>
this is a little different from how sbcl does it but (values ... &rest nil) should still work on sbcl
<NotThatRPG>
Bike: Yes, I must be doing something wrong there. But I would have thought that if I was, the attempt to broadcast to this not-correctly-created stream would cause an error
<Bike>
the CLHS is unfortunately confusing and self-contradictory on this point, so i went with something that i think fits it and is mostly sane
<Bike>
NotThatRPG: the error would actually come from with-open-file failing to open the file, i think
<scymtym>
NotThatRPG: maybe TRACE OPEN since the values of :IF-EXISTS and :IF-DOES-NOT-EXIST may influence buffering and when the file is actually written. the default values of :IF-EXISTS and :IF-DOES-NOT-EXIST are complicated and may depend on how your pathname components have been merged
<Bike>
wait, seriously?
<NotThatRPG>
Bike: The oddity is that there's no error, just no output
<Bike>
oh, it uses the version component... that's freaky
<NotThatRPG>
scymtym: Thanks. Maybe I should be explicitly supplying those instead of trusting to the defaults
<NotThatRPG>
will try adding :if-exists :supersede and :if-does-not-exist :create and see if that works better
<NotThatRPG>
d'oh! I'm somehow *deleting* that file. No idea how that happens!
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<scymtym>
i think a non-local exit from the WITH-OPEN-FILE can do that in some cases
* scymtym
vanishes
<NotThatRPG>
scymtym: oh! Thanks!
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<NotThatRPG>
I would have thought that handling non-local exits was the reason *why* we have with-open-file!
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<Bike>
NotThatRPG: yeah, the way it handles it is by trying as hard as it can to uncreate the file if it created it. which isn't great for a log, huh
<NotThatRPG>
Bike: no indeed!
<Bike>
" If a new output file is being written, and control leaves abnormally, the file is aborted and the file system is left, so far as possible, as if the file had never been opened."
<NotThatRPG>
I guess maybe I should *not* be using with-open-file, but instead using `open` and `close` and `unwind-protect`.