jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<beach> DELETE-PACKAGE won't necessarily make definitions named by symbols in that package unreachable.
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<qhong> beach: right. If only we have BECOME! in Common Lisp...
<beach> A step in the right direction would be to have first-class global environments with "delta" environments. Then the side effects on an environment could be undone by removing the last delta.
<beach> We are planning to have some of that functionality implemented for Second Climacs, because we want to compile top-level forms, and we can't allow them to have side effects on the global environment. Those effects must be possible to undo when the user modifies a top-level form in the buffer.
<beach> We can't undo all compile-time side effects, but we might be able to catch most of them.
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<qhong> beach: is there a reason I saw CL people talk about first-class global enviroment a lot lately but not first-class environment in general?
<qhong> I guess implementation difficulty?
<qhong> Also from the description I see it's more like a first-class store?
<qhong> Is there a way to add a custom class as a string designator, so existing code that expect string also work on the instances of this class?
<beach> There are two kinds of lexical environments. One kind is used only by the compiler, and we have those in the form of the Trucler library. The other one is the static environment of a closure, and those are highly implementation specific, and usually not useful as separate objects.
<beach> First-class global environments is a way of representing the mappings between names and objects in a single object. Usually, in a typical Common Lisp implementation, there is only one global environment, and it is spread out everywhere. Part of it is represented in the slots of symbols.
<qhong> what are the names and objects refer to? package-name\times symbol-name -> symbol, or something more else?
<qhong> It seems that you're refering to symbol \times property -> value, but won't that leak information between FCGEs via the package system, if package-name\times symbol-name -> symbol is still shared?
<beach> Symbols as names of functions, (SETF <symbol>) as names of functions. Symbols as names of method combinations. Symbols as names of classes. Strings as names of packages. etc.
<qhong> Ok that makes sense
<qhong> wait but if string->package is separated, there's no way for FCGEs to share packages, so the rest are all unnecessary?
<qhong> because the set of symbol is already disjoint
<beach> Who says packages can't be shared?
<beach> Nothing prevents one name in one first-class global environment to map to the same object as a different name in a different first-class global environment.
<beach> And who says that just because two packages are different, they can't share symbols?
<qhong> let me recap... so any objects can still be shared between FCGEs, but require some explicit capability passing? So it's some separation mechanism like Unix virtual machines or Javascript worlds
<beach> The mechanisms by which sharing can be done have not been fully worked out yet.
<qhong> I see. If I now understand a bit more correctly, it doesn't really have a lot to do with first-class environment (in programming language context, at least)
<beach> Oh?
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<qhong> more like a virtualization or sandboxing facility. Very useful none the least
<beach> The standard defines what an environment is. It is in the chapter on compilation.
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<beach> clhs 3.2.1
<ixelp> CLHS: Section 3.2.1
<beach> Starting with "Four different environments are relevant..."
<qhong> hmm
<qhong> how first-class the FCGE will be?
<beach> (make-instance 'environment ...)
<qhong> I guess if it's first-class enough to support defining a chaining operation, it can be hacked into behaving like a usual lexical environment as well
<beach> What is a "usual lexical environment"?
<qhong> will closure closed over the current global environment?
<beach> No, that's not a global environment.
<beach> A closure closes over a lexical environment which is not global.
<qhong> ok. if a closure refer to some global variables, the value it sees changes when switching FCGE
<beach> I have not said anything about the effects of "switching" a first-class global environment.
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<beach> Actually, I have, in my presentation, I think it was for the online Lisp meeting.
<qhong> Anyway, I think I'd better convince myself FCGE is more like VM or first-class Store rather than environment in PL context which are primarily a device for describing scope nesting. Otherwise I just seem to confuse myself
<qhong> can FCGE contain other binding information, like object slots to values?
<beach> That's up to you. But it is definitely an environment.
<qhong> Is Store in semantics for imperative language also an environment?
<qhong> I guess so
<beach> I am just considering the definition in Common Lisp.
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<beach> And no, in general, slots to values won't be part of the first-class global environment. But there are some classes in Common Lisp where people think that they need slots, but they don't.
<beach> People tend to assume that SYMBOL-FUNCTION and SYMBOL-PLIST access a slot in the symbol, but there is nowhere in the standard such a requirement.
<beach> Same with package functions such as PACKAGE-USE-LIST.
<qhong> I don't see the point of making and only-making what is defined as "environment" in CL standard first-class
<beach> And none of this is in the future. We extracted first-class global environments in the form of the Clostrum library, and I already use it in SICL bootstrapping to isolate the host environment(s) from the SICL environments.
<beach> Well, I guess you would have to read the paper then.
<qhong> From what I see now there's two sensible level of separation: Separating package-name \times symbol-name -> symbol, or separating location -> value
<qhong> The former partition symbol identity, and the latter is first-class store, which enables lots of wild uses
<beach> It is one of the papers here: http://metamodular.com/SICL/
<ixelp> SICL documents
<beach> The thing is that this separation does not have to be the same for all objects.
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<qhong> I'm not that familiar with implementation and I'm slow on 4.1-2, but separating only packages seem to be already sufficient for 4.3-5
<qhong> and I will already kill for a CL implementation that does not enforce one-to-one mapping of packages and names... so looking forward to this superset, aka FCGE, to be adopted :)
<beach> I suspect it won't be generally adopted. It would require too many changes to existing implementations.
<beach> What is 4.1-2 and 4.3-5?
<beach> Oh, I guess in the paper?
<qhong> beach: in the paper "First-class Global Environments in Common Lisp"
<beach> I see, yes.
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<beach> Like I said, first-class global environments are already used in SICL (which is not yet usable to the general public), and we will need something like that for Second Climacs.
<beach> But I don't think you will see them in any existing implementation.
<qhong> kudos to the effort building a new world from the ground up. I'm just gonna defadvice SBCL running on UNIX :)
<beach> Thanks.
<qhong> Does second climacs support structural editing?
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<qhong> I think a tree-model is much more general than text buffer, and can potentially be extend to a much larger set of contents, e.g. tables and music notations
<beach> I don't think so, no. For Common Lisp editing, it uses a traditional (but very efficient) buffer implementation, and a very good parser to turn the text into Common Lisp code.
<qhong> ok got it.
<qhong> I dream to see a structural editor grown into an OS
<qhong> Emacs is a good text editor grown into an awful OS
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<qhong> (still better than Linux desktop environments though)
<beach> I don't plan to put all of Emacs into Second Climacs.
<beach> As you pointed out, it's not a great idea. But we have CLIM, so that's already better.
<qhong> Yes! qvq
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<qhong> actually I'm a bit suspicious
<qhong> One feature Emacs has is that everything is not only read/displayable, but also editable
<qhong> I'm not sure if that will hold true in a CLIM world
<qhong> and if that is not true, from this single aspect it's the same as the rest of the GUI status quo
<splittist> qhong: emacs is constantly telling me things are readonly. And the gui/tui chrome isn't editable.
<qhong> splittist: Yes, I'm saying the GUI status quo is by default read only
<qhong> splittist: copy the thing into a buffer and then edit. I find that incredibly useful
<qhong> splittist: Of course there's also the technically-correct answer, which is M-x read-only-mode, but in practice less useful
<qhong> In comparison, I can't copy a DOM element into another webpage and edit it. At least not easily.
<splittist> I was just doing that very thing.
<qhong> Already 1000x better than normie GUI
<qhong> (or corporate GUI)
<splittist> Unless the corporate GUI is made in Excel, in which case your nirvana has arrived.
<qhong> ;)
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<qhong> Is there a reasonable way to add a custom class as a pathname/string designator?
<beach> I don't think so. There is no requirement on how standard operators convert designators to objects.
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<qhong> Is there way to mutate a pathname?
<qhong> string has identity and are mutable, so a hashtable plus some wrapper can reasonably simulate subclasses of string
<pjb> qhong: no way to mutate a pathname. Use make-pathname with :defaults to make a new pathname.
<pjb> (make-pathname :type "fasl" :defaults #P"/tmp/source.lisp") #| --> #P"/tmp/source.fasl" |#
<pjb> you can implement your own designator resolution function, and use it explicitely. Eg. (pathname<-integer 42) --> #P"/home/john/"
<qhong> pjb: ok, then it's not feasible. I'm trying to simulate a subclass of pathname by passing around the pathname (taking advantage of it having object identity), and use a hash to map that pathname to the "actual" object.
<qhong> but if pathname can't be mutated the above simulation doesn't work
<qhong> it work for string though, which is good enough
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<jackdaniel> technically speaking clim features a tree structure so there you have your structure. editing is done with add-output-record, delete-output-record etc, you may traverse them and do many things. it is just that editing a structure is far less intuitive than editing a buffer
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<jackdaniel> as Craig Finseth puts it - writing with a structural editor is easy, but editing it is a hassle (paraphrasing)
<jackdaniel> editing with it*
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<pve> Hi! Is there a recommended way to set the current package and default directory for the slime repl while loading a lisp file? I have a few "session" files in which I would like to configure these things.
<pve> by session file I mean i file that may get loaded at start-up that requires dependencies etc
<pve> I've tried (swank:eval-in-emacs '(slime-repl-set-package "MY-PACKAGE")), and it works with C-c C-l but hangs weirdly if I do (load "mysession.lisp") in the repl, so I'm not sure if that's the way to go
<pve> I think it hangs when I type it in the repl because whatever channel swank and slime communicate through gets locked when I hit enter at the repl, and swank:eval-in-emacs would like to use that same channel to set the package. But I can't really be sure, because this magic is beyond me.
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<scymtym> for a file /tmp/f.lisp containing (defun f () (let ((l `(#1=(1) #1#))) (eq (first l) (second l)))), SBCL behaves like this: (progn (load (compile-file "/tmp/f.lisp")) (funcall 'f)) => t but (progn (load "/tmp/f.lisp") (funcall 'f)) => nil
<scymtym> i know that both results are valid behaviors for quasiquote (and for both behaviors, there are other implementations which behave in the respective way) but is the difference in behavior allowed?
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<Shinmera> A big update is coming to my Lisp game next week! https://reader.tymoon.eu/article/424
<splittist> <hooray emoji thing>
<Shinmera> \o/
<beach> clhs restart-case
<ixelp> CLHS: Macro RESTART-CASE
<beach> Shouldn't there be a * after {clause}?
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<yitzi> Yes
<beach> I thought so. Thanks!
<pjb> scymtym: you could use quote instead and always have T.
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<pjb> scymtym: in the case of quasiquote, it is indeed allowed by the letter.
<pjb> beach: { … } implies 0-n repeatition.
<beach> Oh? I missed that.
<beach> Thanks.
<pjb> Err, perhaps I'm wrong. I see in 1.4.1.2.3 an example with { … }*
<scymtym> pjb: sure, as a user, the best solution is to just use QUOTE where possible. i am, however, curious regarding the allowed behavior. it seems that mostly all bets are off with quasiquote. i guess the question is whether "An implementation is free to interpret a backquoted form F1 as any form F2 that …" implies a fixed F1 -> F2 mapping or not
<pjb> the mapping is not defined in terms of EQ, but of EQUAL.
<scymtym> my point is whether it has to be the same F_2 for a given F_1 processed in different contexts. but it doesn't matter too much
<jackdaniel> the standard uses a modified bnf notation so {foo} seems to be correct while {foo}* is arguably not -- it should be foo* instead then
<jackdaniel> on the other hand in the introduction about bnf {foo}n is explicitly mentioned, so {foo}* should be fine too if we take that at face value
<beach> Interesting. A case for WSCL it seems.
<jackdaniel> (introduction in clhs that is)
<jcowan> IMO separation of concerns requires that ` , @, expand to calls on specific macros which then expand to runtime Lisp code
<pjb> beach: 1.4.1.2 refers an "extended Backus Normal Form (BNF)" and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Backus–Naur_form mentions {} = repeat. But perhaps there was some ambiguity on the part of the writers of the specification.
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<beach> Yeah, maybe so.
<jcowan> s/specific/& well-known
<jackdaniel> i.e it is possible to say {foo}4 (in clhs) to denote "repeated four times"
<jackdaniel> so {foo}* is the same as foo* and as {foo} (without qualifier)
<pjb> ok.
<scymtym> jackdaniel: i also that that {} is just for grouping (in the CL spec), but where did you see the {…}1 example in 1.4.1.2?
<ixelp> CLHS: Section 1.4.1.2.1
<scymtym> jackdaniel: thanks. oh my, this is rendered differently in gilberth's HTML
* scymtym checks the TeX sources
<scymtym> gilberth: has basically has (x ⟦A¹ | B² | C⟧ y) instead of (x [[{A}¹ | {B}¹ | C]] y)
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<gilberth> scymtym: What section are you looking at? Is there a difference to the original document?
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<ixelp> 1.4 Definitions | Common Lisp Nova Spec
<scymtym> the TeX source is \f{(x \interleave{\one{A} | \one{B} | C} y)}
<scymtym> where \def\one #1{$\hbox{#1}^1$}
<scymtym> so i think gilberth is right
<beach> Are we surprised?
<gilberth> Ok. You mean this part? http://clim.rocks/gilbert/dpans-xabc.png ?
<gilberth> Looks the same in the .dvi to me.
<jackdaniel> I should look up sections directly in tex sources apparently :) all in all {foo} means repetition of grouping?
<scymtym> gilberth: no, as i wrote above: (x ⟦A¹ | B² | C⟧ y) vs. (x [[{A}¹ | {B}¹ | C]] y)
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<gilberth> [BTW it's https://novaspec.org/cl/ now.]
<ixelp> Common Lisp Nova Spec
<scymtym> gilberth: but your rendering agrees with the dvi version for that as well
<gilberth> Ok. So everything is good?
* gilberth still has to proof-read the whole damn thing.
<beach> Except the Common Lisp HyperSpec which seems to be wrong?
<gilberth> Well, I caved in and work from the DVI files, not from the TeX sources.
<scymtym> CLHS has other issues around BNF grammars. see https://techfak.de/~jmoringe/presentation-dpans-conversion/slides.html#/slide-slide%3Amotivation%3Amacro-lambda-list for example
<ixelp> Turning dpANS into new Specification Documents
<gilberth> CLHS has a lot of issues. I try to be as acurate to the original TeX document as possible.
<beach> Well, that seems to suggest that it would be a good idea to create a better HTML version of the (draft) standard.
<scymtym> gilberth: if you are working from the dvi, is there a way to associate issue comments and reviewer comments with the specification text?
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<splittist> or svg / pdf-displayed-with-pdf.js / pdf-displayed-with-whatever-Adobe-stuff-is-being-embedded-in-chromish-stuff
<gilberth> scymtym: Yes, that's on my TODO. But first I want to care for those pesky \term{...}s in there.
<scymtym> gilberth: i see. yeah \term is a pita since apparently you need stemming for proper linking
<Bike> huh, so destructuring &whole is no good?
<gilberth> scymtym: It's not as worse as it sounds. When you look at the DOM, notice all the CLASS=... attributes still there. I adviced the relevant macros to eject \special's so althrough I work from the DVI for accuracy, I still capture the structure.
<scymtym> gilberth: i meant that, to find the glossary entry a \term refers to you seem to need stemming as far as i can tell
<gilberth> scymtym: Indeed, you find \term{foos} refering to "foo". But there is more than just the glossary, There is also \newterm{...} in the main text. And then there is an index as well. At times you find three or four relevant spots in the whole document for a given term.
<scymtym> yeah. regular plural to singular being the easiest case
<gilberth> I don't see an issue here. This list is finite and I can care for that manually. What concerns me more is that although there is this \term{foo}\meaning{3} construct to refer to the the "3." meaning of a term, it is used for \term{whitespace} only is seems. This is annoying because I want to show the glossary definitions of terms mentioned in a side bar on the right near where the term is used.
<gilberth> Less flipping from the main text to glossary and back. And those \term{}s are really part of each dictionary entry and at times have non-obvious definitions.
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<gilberth> I disabled that side-bar feature for now, because I had formatting issues and figured I'd need some JS-magic for that to work properly.
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<gilberth> Also, it disturbs w3m rendering. I want that w3m gives you a working plain text rendering as well.
<gilberth> To summarize: I consider my HTML rendering usable by now, but still have some more work to do. And it appears that I don't have to announce it anymore here, it announced by itself :-)
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<beach> Heh.
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* splittist is amazed and humbled that the problem he has been staring at for hours is solved by a stackexchange answer appearing towards the top of a web search - no GPT required...
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<copec> gilberth, do you have a list of known technical issues with the standard? (like the one-to-one upper/lowercase mapping being an issue in some cases)
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<ixelp> GitHub - robert-strandh/Well-Specified-Common-Lisp: A specification of an improvement to the Common Lisp standard
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<yitzi> pjb: That has moved to https://github.com/s-expressionists/wscl
<ixelp> GitHub - s-expressionists/wscl: Sources of the "Well Specified Common Lisp" specification which is based on the final dr [...]
<pjb> yitzi: ok.
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<pjb> copec: ^
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<ober> are those drafts voted on like scheme srfis?
<Bike> there's not really an adoption process at the moment
<Bike> on the other hand, they're not nearly as complicated as SRFIs
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<an_origamian[m]> Who are the s-expressionists?
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<pjb> an_origamian[m]: people who like S-expressions.
<an_origamian[m]> I like S-expressions, but I'm not in that group. D:
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<kagev> maybe they're allied with the sharp-coders
<White_Flame> when I quit being a pressionist, then I'll be an expressionist, I guess
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<yitzi> White_Flame: s-expressionists are the expressionists that don John McCarthy (or other heroes of Lisp) masks as a disguises.
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<Shinmera> Praise be, I get to replace yet another confusing pile of C with a confusing pile of Lisp :) https://github.com/shinmera/ldapper
<ixelp> GitHub - Shinmera/ldapper: Trivial LDAP server
<NotThatRPG> Say -- has anyone been able to quickload Didier's command-line parser? When I try, quickload can't find the supporting library net.didierverna.termio
<NotThatRPG> Or can anyone suggest an alternate?
<Shinmera> I have so far been unsuccessful in finding one I actually liked
<Shinmera> So I typically just end up rolling a trivial version instead, like I just did: https://github.com/Shinmera/ldapper/blob/master/main.lisp#L11
<ixelp> ldapper/main.lisp at master · Shinmera/ldapper · GitHub
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<NotThatRPG> This really seems like a serious missing battery for CL. It just shouldn't be that hard to get some clone of Getopt::Long
<NotThatRPG> And instead we have dozens of non-solutions.
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<ixelp> GitHub - dnaeon/clingon: Command-line options parser system for Common Lisp
<paulapatience> It's not yet in quicklisp, but I've used it and it is quite convenient
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<NotThatRPG> paulapatience: Thanks! Might have a whack at that next.
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<ober> paulapatience: it's pretty nice. thanks
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