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<gamaliel>
Hi, does anyone know of a tutorial or introduction to displaced arrays? I'm not very familiar with the topic and wish to understand more. Doesn't necessarily need to be a CL-based tutorial.
<jeosol>
pjb: The array-equal-p function in line 457 is some beautiful code and nice use of flet...
<aeth>
double-floats are the main somewhat practical thing to put in a 0D array to play around with if you want to
<jeosol>
I did write an array.lisp library for my application but I assume the content of my arrays are numbers (ints or floats)
<jeosol>
Last few weeks, I had to work with python, having worked with lisp for last several years, it was like pulling teeth, fighting jupyter notebook kernels, server issues. A lot of things that just works in CL, many may ignore.
<jeosol>
Once you have your CL/lisp environments configured, it's just you and your problem, not fighting the editor, or other issues.
<jeosol>
aeth: what do you mean 'put in' ...?
<jeosol>
I see the example you gave, missed it.
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<beach>
agm: What are your reasons for creating a new Common Lisp implementation? I am asking because some people do it in order to learn how interpreters and compilers work. Others do it because their implementation has some characteristics (speed, portability, interoperability, maintainability) that others don't.
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<beach>
agm: Another question: What do you use for garbage collection?
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<beach>
agm: Yet another: Presumably, you like the Common Lisp language, so why did you decide to write your Common Lisp implementation in a language other than Common Lisp?
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<agm>
beach: I use reference counting for garbage collection. i try to steer away from garbage collection, because it brings random freezes, while refcounting is more predictable
<beach>
Hmm. Except that reference counting doesn't work. It can't reclaim circular structures.
<agm>
beach: c89 is more portable, so you can bootstrap in many platforms. that's the same approach as emacs: a c core and then lisp
<beach>
And it is way slower than a tracing GC.
<agm>
beach: that's true of classic refcounting, but there's a published algorithm that also collects loop, maybe i will implement some variation of it
<beach>
OK, good luck! You didn't mention your reason for doing this. I mean CLISP and ECL are both built this way.
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<hayley>
Perceus doesn't deal with cycles, from what I remember from the paper. And the fast reference counters have interesting stop-the-world pauses, and the incremental tracing collectors have interesting barriers c.f. <https://web.eecs.umich.edu/~weimerw/2012-4610/reading/bacon-garbage.pdf>
<hayley>
Reference counting is garbage collection too. (scnr)
<jackdaniel>
oom process restart is gc too in a sense :)
<jackdaniel>
with peculiar characteristics
<hayley>
The world's most annoying arena allocator.
<agm>
jackdaniel: haha that's funny
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<Alfr>
agm, don't think that algorithm from that paper solves the problem, authors don't say how the required invariants, especially the no strong cycles one, can be established/constructed in an efficient manner; they defer to domain specific knowledge for that.
<Alfr>
agm, further I don't think it will perform well in the presence of many cycles; in particular deleting the last strong pointer to something still being referred to by weak pointers triggers something like a recursive mark-swap phase, the very thing you intend to avoid by using a RC.
<hayley>
And I should mention that concurrent tracing exists, too; it's not quite as easy as "tracing pauses but goes fast, refcount doesn't pause but goes slow". Again see my first link, as they describe how achieving good results in both dimensions (throughput and latency) entails using a mixture of the algorithms.
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<beach>
I suspect agm's mind is made up about this, though.
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<Alfr>
agm, and as a bonus every pointer needs a strength bit, and every node/object a strength bit, two RC and one mark counter. Fun.
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<hayley>
For brownie points (having hacked a new collector into SBCL) I would suggest trying to make the collector as loosely coupled as possible, so that a user can choose the most suitable collection algorithm.
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<agm>
it also depends on how common reference cycles are in typical big lisp programs. i'd be interested in such a measurement
<beach>
Extremely common.
<beach>
Every symbol refers to its package, and every package refers to a bunch of symbols.
<beach>
Every generic function refers to its methods, and every method refers to its generic function.
<beach>
Methods also refer to specializer classes. And classes refer to methods that use it as a specializer.
<agm>
can package be excluded from garbage collection? after all, there's an explicit delete-package function in CL
<beach>
DELETE-PACKAGE does not destroy the object. It just unlinks it from the package dictionary.
<hayley>
I tend to cook up a few graphs with cycles, so reference counting wouldn't suffice.
<Alfr>
Someone asks about big lisp programs and beach naturally thinks of a CL implementation. Certainly appropriate wrt the topic, but still ... :)
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<beach>
Alfr: Fair enough.
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<beach>
Still any big application will create packages, classes, generic functions, and methods.
<Alfr>
beach, I didn't mean to imply that there was anything wrong with that example. Only seemed funny, as people for most purposes won't think of a language implementation as a program by itself.
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<jackdaniel>
it is rare for packages and gfs to be deleted, and methids after dereferencing are usually effectively dead. so perhaps packages and gfs could be put in memry that is not garbage collected, and methods eagerly deallocated when replaced/removed
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<jackdaniel>
this has certain yucky rifications, but depending on requirements they could be acceptable
<jackdaniel>
ramifications
<agm>
beach: the examples you made are tipically global objects, so they don't need collection, unless you redefine them (which sometimes happens in interactive programming)
<jackdaniel>
common lisp does not mandate garbage collection strictly speaking
<jackdaniel>
if there is enough memory to contain whole program until finish of the execution
<jackdaniel>
if we have infinite memory (and we clearly do unless we agree that there is most-positive-bignum) then we are all set :)
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<mfiano>
that sentence was semantically invalid
<mfiano>
I think you meant to say we clearly do not.
<mfiano>
because it is not so clear to me that we have infinite memory in our computers, but I could be wrong, because I can't even remember what time I woke up this morning.
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<yitzi>
I think the implication is that since most-positive-bignum isn't defined memory must be infinite. If memory is finite then most-positive-bignum should be defined and be the largest value that fits into your actual memory. :)
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* jackdaniel
nods
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<beach>
There is a phrase somewhere in the standard that says an implementation is free to implement a standard macro as a special operator, as long as the macro is also provided. Does anyone remember where that phrase is located?
<phantomics>
What's the best way to evaluate one closure within a specific package? For example, while in PKG1 I tried (progn (in-package "PKG2") ...stuff... (in-package "PKG1") item-to-return) but the stuff evaluated as if I was in PKG1 the whole time
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<yitzi>
(let ((*package* bla)) ...)
<yitzi>
in-package doesn't create a new binding.
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<Bike>
what do you mean by evaluating a closure?
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<phantomics>
The goal is to evaluate code in a closure and pass something back, for example (setf something (...)) where the ... is evaluated in a different package
<Devon>
phantomics: what is the meta-goal?
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<phantomics>
Evaluating an SBCL (define-vop) form, the standard way of using them seems to be just evaluating with the sb-vm package but that's infeasible in this situation
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<phantomics>
That's still not working. I tried (let ((*package* (find-package "SB-VM"))) (define-vop ...)) but I get an error indicating that define-vop isn't recognized as a macro, thus it's not being evaluated within the sb-vm package
<Bike>
that's because the whole form is read before the package is bound
<Bike>
reading happens before evaluation. they are not interleaved.
<phantomics>
Ok, figured it was a read order issue, is there any expedient way of doing this? This code is being generated by a macro, so I could write a function that recursively goes through the form and does find-symbol for the string of each symbol in sb-vm, but that's really inelegant
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<pjb>
phantomics: have your macro generate sb-vm:define-vop instead of define-vop.
<phantomics>
pjb: The generated code is full of other sb-vm symbols like inst, various instruction names, etc. Prepending the package name to all would be awkward and hard to read
<pjb>
phantomics: then have the package that is current when you read this macro use the sb-vm package.
<pjb>
(assuming all those symbols are exported from sb-vm)
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<phantomics>
pjb: they're not external. I suppose I could write a simple package that imports each of those symbols explicitly and then exports them
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<pjb>
phantomics: that, or define your macro in sb-vm itself.
<Bike>
if you're specifically on sbcl, it has special syntax for switching package for one s-expression
<Bike>
(list 'sb-vm::(a b) 7) => ((SB-VM::A SB-VM::B) 7)
<phantomics>
Bike: cool, that should do it. This code is using SBCL-exclusive features so it only needs to be supported in SBCL
<phantomics>
pjb: that's not viable either because the macro code is composed using the output of many methods from another package; I would have to implement them all within sb-vm and it would get more and more complicated
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