<jeosol>
Fare: Good to see you in these parts. Do you mean divorce from common lisp?
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<Fare>
jeosol, divorce from my then-wife, who picked a lawyer who is "hard to work with" (dixit other lawyers).
<Fare>
That said, I've also mostly divorced from CL, apart from occasional maintenance of old packages, some of which I still use (e.g. for my stumpwm configuration)
<jeosol>
Fare: Thanks for sharing. That's a personal matter and it can be difficult to navigate, but hopefully it's resolved soon.
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<Fare>
It's been as resolved as it will ever be (until the kids grow up) since last week.
* Spawns_Carpeting
patpat Fare
<Spawns_Carpeting>
Does anyone here use sly? I have an issue where it thinks the "shabang" at the top of the source file is some sort of macro
<Spawns_Carpeting>
the shebang being the "#!/usr/bin/sbcl --script" line at the first line of the file
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<Fare>
Spawns_Carpeting, what does your readtable say about #! ?
<Fare>
cl-launch takes care to define #! before to load its file...
<Fare>
did they ever address the bug reports I sent when porting ASDF to GCL ?
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<Fare>
Well, I'm not ASDF maintainer anymore, so I don't actually want to fight anymore.
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<Spawns_Carpeting>
hm i am not totally sure how to check the readtable
<Spawns_Carpeting>
its not a huge deal, i can just write an elisp function to compile the entire region of the buffer except for the top line
<Bike>
(get-dispatch-macro-character #\# #\!)
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<stylewarning>
Fare: brettgilio: IIUC the biggest motivation of the GCL release was to keep it relevant for Maxima, because it was (is?) on the chopping block.
<stylewarning>
Serve The Users (TM)
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<jackdaniel>
"I fight for the User" - Tron; "I fight for the User Maximally" - Maxima
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<pve>
Hey, I'm reading up on licenses and wondering if LGPL makes sense for a lisp library. I've been in the habit of using LLGPL, but based on what I've read, plain LGPL might be ok. Is LLGPL a thing of the past?
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<jackdaniel>
it is, according to some lawyers it brings more uncertainity than plain lgpl
<ixelp>
wscl/setf-fdefinition-type-error at main · s-expressionists/wscl · GitHub
<phoe>
beach: looks good to me; I assume that (one (fdefinition 'let)) is allowed to be a type error too, since any kind of error goes at that point
<phoe>
beach: in L46, is SAFETY 0 what you meant? that an error is signaled even in unsafe code?
<beach>
It is allowed to be a type error, of course, but it doesn't have to be. And in SBCL, it can't be because the return value of (FDEFINITION LET) is a function.
<beach>
Yes, "an error is signaled" means always.
<beach>
FDEFINITION with SETF is not a performance-critical operation, so there is no reason to allow more in unsafe code.
<pve>
jackdaniel: This was the takeaway for me: "My strong belief lies on the side that it is not derived work and if the author of the Lisp library gave it the LGPL license – they meant it. If we take another interpretation, then it is no different than licensing it with GPL, so it would be nonsense."
<pve>
i think it's a good point, although I'm not a lawyer
<phoe>
beach: it's fun to see what implementations allow
<beach>
Indeed.
<phoe>
ABCL seemingly allows symbols as fdefinitions, at which point it just funcalls them
<phoe>
CLISP seemingly allows specop fdefinitions as fdefinitions, at which point new special operators are created
<phoe>
ACL produces a simple error and not a type error
<phoe>
LW just hangs
<beach>
I see. Unfortunate, since it violates the spirit of the standard, even though it is conforming since the Notes section is not normative.
<phoe>
...well, okay, it does not hang
<phoe>
it allows setting of the fdefinition and then hangs after calling that malformed (foo)
<beach>
That's... special.
<beach>
pve: Here is my take. It is unfortunately so that many Lisp people strongly dislike the GPL-family licenses. I concluded that it is unlikely that someone is going to take one of my libraries and incorporate it into commercial code, and even if they did, it would not be a disaster. So I have decided (but I am open to arguments) to use BSD with libraries and system code, and then GPL with applications.
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<beach>
pve: Put differently, I fear (because of my observation) that if I were to use a *GPL license for one of my libraries, then many people would avoid it just because of that fact. And I think that would be worse than the possibility that someone would incorporate the library in commercial code.
<hayley>
After Netfarm I've seemed to BSD-license everything. As an aside, with little real effect, it's interesting that many outside Lisp use MIT licensing and Lisp libraries tend towards BSD.
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<hayley>
With regards to Netfarm, any attempts to commercialise would be disastrous, and more likely to ruin the reputation of my project as well as theirs. They could not possibly produce any kind of "scarcity", to the best of my knowledge, and thus have no product. I can't call it application code, but nothing else I have written is "big" enough to have such concerns.
<Nilby>
It is very unlikely that anybody will use your Lisp code, and if they do, and they're a corporation, they'll use in in backend and they'll make tons of money from it and not share any money or code with you, unless you've use AGPL, in which case they probably wouldn't have used it.
<beach>
phoe: Thanks for your review!
<phoe>
beach: no problem
<phoe>
I can see what ABCL and CLISP do as something potentially useful for the programmer
<beach>
Sure, but they could have used a different function.
<phoe>
they seem to have have used the undefined parts of SETF FDEFINITION; if it's undefined then implementations are almost always free to define it
<beach>
Let me take this opportunity to encourage people to submit WSCL issues. There is still a lot of work to do. More things in the standard are unspecified than you might think, and they deserve to be specified.
<beach>
phoe: Indeed, while ignoring the Notes section.
<phoe>
yes
<pve>
beach: ok, that sounds reasonable. I hadn't really thought about applications yet.
<beach>
pve: Yes, I see.
<pve>
my main concern is that improvements to the thing itsef, be it library or application should ideally be shared.
<beach>
I understand.
<beach>
pve: But I have seen several times that people avoid using code with a *GPL license (typically accompanied by some snooty remark). And then there will be no improvements at all.
<pve>
beach: ok, that's unfortunate
<beach>
Very.
<beach>
pve: I certainly don't want to tell you what to do. I was just sharing my reasons for not using *GPL in libraries and system code.
<pve>
sometimes snooty remarks indicate lack of understanding..
<beach>
Possibly. Or else a true desire to profit from free code by incorporating it in commercial software. But very few would succeed in doing that.
<beach>
Most remarks I see involve some variation on "it is not TRULY free", using the author's own (obviously the only correct) definition of "truly free". But I guess we are already off topic a bit here.
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<jackdaniel>
pve: I've developed a personal distaste for the phrase "I am not a lawyer" - it is too often used as a hand-wavy argument to not do something. (I'm not saying that you've used it that way)
<jackdaniel>
generally there is a very vocal anti-copyleft group of people on the internet forums
<aeth>
The MIT license seemed more common in CL than the BSD license when I last checked, which was ages ago. Maybe things have changed in recent years.
<aeth>
The confusing part with licenses is the middle ground ones like the LGPL/LLGPL. Everyone knows that the GPL means, or is supposed to, anyway.
<jackdaniel>
lgpl is like putting a cookiejar in public and saying: don't take it, claim ownership and resell at "fAiR MArkeT PrICe" :)
<jackdaniel>
(this is a joke, please don't prove me wrong on this silly remark)
<aeth>
LGPL is saying "package it in a specific way so a user can upgrade the library in-place without relying on you, except it's worded in a C-specific way, except we say it applies to all languages"
<aeth>
which is why all such license issues are usually the LGPL, not the GPL
<beach>
I wouldn't say "C specific", but as I recall, there are phrases that suggest traditional languages with traditional separate compilation and transitional linking technology.
<beach>
s/transitional/traditional/
<inward>
if I read On Lisp, will I need to also read Let Over Lambda?
<jackdaniel>
no
<inward>
jackdaniel: is it more or less the same contents?
<jackdaniel>
let over lambda is an amusing book, but it does not teach good practices
<inward>
oh, I see
<jackdaniel>
no, let over lambda is a fun set of experiments with closures, on lisp is a book that discusses interesting and very useful common lisp techniques
<beach>
That, and On Lisp is certainly good enough to learn some very sophisticated macro use.
<inward>
aha, I see, so I don't need to read Let Over Lambda, thanks guys
<jackdaniel>
sure
<jackdaniel>
regarding wording in lgpl, /I think/ that there was a clarification from fsf after someone (not lisp related, but some other non-c-like language) asked about the phrasing around linking etc
<jackdaniel>
but I don't feel like digging that up in the internet, so I'll leave it as a hearesay
<jackdaniel>
(generally - technical details aside, it applies the same to libraries where "linking" does not a C sense)
<ixelp>
The LGPL and Java - GNU Project - Free Software Foundation
<aeth>
you just have to know that 'java' is the magic word when this conversation comes up again in 2 years
<jackdaniel>
sure, I appreciate that
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<pve>
jackdaniel: Ok, I just meant that to a layman such as myself the argument I quoted seems sound.
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<jackdaniel>
yes, that's why I've added that I'm not saying that you've used it wrongly
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<lispm>
Probably gonna be off-topic here. I am not a channel regular. But just wanted to alert here that there is a certain lisp123 here who pretends to be multiple people on different forums (HN, Reddit, perhaps here too) and self-promote their links related to ashok-khanna while pretending to be someone else. Case in point:
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<jackdaniel>
lispm: that was denounced here a few months back
<jackdaniel>
hey btw
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<jackdaniel>
(since they did not break any rules on this channel it just went as something people acknowledged - lisp123 sometimes attends this channel)
<lispm>
jackdaniel: thanks. glad to know you are aware of this problem.
<lispm>
Ah! I see you guys have misaken me for Rainer. I am not. :-) Unfortunate choice of irc nick. Will drop this nick so that it is available for the real Rainer.
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<phoe>
oh :D
<phoe>
hey btw anyway
<mfiano>
I don't understand what the problem is.
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<jackdaniel>
in your code you are yet to disclose or with promoting your own work under different names?
<mfiano>
lisp123 talks here, but I don't recall advertising.
<jackdaniel>
me neither, that's why I've said that he doesn't break any rules here
<Shinmera>
with hugely unique names like "lispm" and "lisp123" it's impossible for there to be different people with the same name
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<prxq>
what is the current recommended library for doing http requests?
<mfiano>
drakma or dexador.
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<prxq>
mfiano: looks good, thanks
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<prxq>
how is it with slime nowadays. Still the best to use the bleeding edge (ie master in the repo)?
<mfiano>
I prefer SLY myself.
<prxq>
interesting
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<nij->
While loading an uncompiled system, the files gets read as piles of strings. I wonder if those strings are retained somewhere in the system? I want to compute the hash of it to identify its 'version'.
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<beach>
Not usually, no. The reader turns it into a structure.
<beach>
nij-: But you can read the entire file yourself as a sequence of characters.
<beach>
nij-: I suggest you read [sic!] up on the reader algorithm in chapter 2.
<beach>
nij-: What I do for SICL, though, is I first read the entire file into a vector of lines, where each line is a string. Then I have the compiler read from a Gray stream that traverses that vector. That way, source position in compiled code is indicated as a triple: vector, line number, column. And the position of an expression as a pair of those (beginning and end).
<nij->
That's cool! Thanks :)
<beach>
Sure. I kind of think you can't convince your standard compiler to do that, though.
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<jackdaniel>
quiz: what is a result of evaluating :|CHAR-#| ? (no peeking!)
<jackdaniel>
or :|CHAR-\#| - doesn't matter
<_death>
do you mean evaluating or typing at the repl?
<Bike>
um, a keyword with the name "CHAR-#"? i hope?
<jackdaniel>
correct, but not in the slime buffer when you do C-x C-e
<jackdaniel>
what is a case in point that regexps are bad for your health
<Nilby>
end of file error unless you have a |#
<jackdaniel>
here it gives me variable |CHAR-#| is unbound because it gets confused about a missing colon
<jackdaniel>
s/missing collon/colon it has apparently dropped/
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<mfiano>
This reminds me of ruricolist/cmd, a wrapper over uiop:*-program, with keyword symbols for Unix pipeline operators like :>, :>>, and my favorite: :|\||
<beach>
jackdaniel: Yes, the way Common Lisp code is parsed in Emacs/SLIME is not that good.
<beach>
It is amazing that it works in so many cases.
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<scymtym>
another example is C-x C-e and #P"foo"_ => "foo" where _ is point
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<pjb>
jackdaniel: the problem isnot the REPL, but emacs that is not able to parse correctly Common Lisp. Even worse when it has to try to parse backward.
<pjb>
jackdaniel: it would be even worse with custom reader macros.
<pjb>
jackdaniel: note: it even has problem with emacs lisp!
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<Nilby>
the thing that once was a star, turned into a black hole
<beach>
pjb: We are working to solve this problem. :)
* mfiano
waits for NthClimacs
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<mfiano>
I think Common Lisp as a community really shined brightly this year. It seems like there were lots more new exciting developments and collaborative efforts than I ever remember previously anyway. In any case, congrats, everyone!
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<NotThatRPG>
mfiano: Wouldn't :|| be a nicer pipeline symbol?
<mfiano>
No, because he also allows using the SYMBOL-NAME when it is annoying to do otherwise, so "|" works.
<NotThatRPG>
Certainly the idea of having something special for those is neat. Are they just translated and shoved through to the shell, or are they unpacked to operators on the streams produced by run-program?
<mfiano>
I am not the author. I didn't particularly care for using that library when I tried though. I ended up re-implementing it :/
<NotThatRPG>
Invoking sub-shells is frowned upon, but I find trying to do anything with "naked" run-program is miserable
<mfiano>
NotThatRPG: I sent you a quick /query
<pjb>
NotThatRPG: I'd have choosen = : ls = grep foo = cat -b vs. ls | grep foo | cat -b
<pjb>
with = you have a real tube into which make data pass thru.
<pjb>
| is like a wall, preventing stuff moving over.
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<beach>
mfiano: Well, as it turns out, I am working on Second Climacs a bit now. Today, I implemented the EXCHANGE-EXPRESSIONS command, sort of like C-M-t in Emacs. And it should work even if there are invocations of strange (even user-defined) reader macros in the buffer.
<beach>
Having said that, I don't recommend that you attempt to use it yet.
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<beach>
As it turns out, scymtym is making great progress on higher-level analyses of the buffer contents and I felt I was holding everything back by not working on Second Climacs.
<mfiano>
Yes, you had tried to hire me to help on Climacs last year, when I was busy. Ironically, now I'm looking for work.
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<mfiano>
(or it might have been early this year)
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<beach>
It vaguely rings a bell.
<mfiano>
I think yitzi filled that position, and went on to write a printer?
<beach>
Maybe so. I can't remember the details.
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<mfiano>
In any case, I still think my previous statement about this year holds true. Congrats everyone.
<Shinmera>
I sure hope 2023 isn't gonna start off shitty for me
<beach>
Why would it?
<Shinmera>
if the sales of Kandria are going to be as I expect them to be it'll be a bad start :)
<beach>
Hmm. :)
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<Shinmera>
Well, even if it doesn't, I do have some reserves to keep going.
<Shinmera>
Though if Next Game is going to be finished, I will need more funds somehow.
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<Shinmera>
*if it doesn't sell well
<beach>
Have you studied the market so that you know what to expect?
<Shinmera>
Yea
<Shinmera>
that's why my expectations are Not Great.
<beach>
:(
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<Josh_2>
GM :sunglasses:
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