jackdaniel changed the topic of #commonlisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | Wiki: <https://www.cliki.net> | IRC Logs: <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/libera/%23commonlisp> | Cookbook: <https://lispcookbook.github.io/cl-cookbook> | Pastebin: <https://plaster.tymoon.eu/>
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<lisp123> are there many program verifiers written in lisp?
<lisp123> or is a domain of ML-inspired languages
<Josh_2> I can verify my lisp programs work
<Josh_2> They are guaranteed to crash, thats how I know they work :sunglasses:
<ldb> I can do term rewriting in head
<ldb> so I do not spend twice of the program size on induction theorems
<hayley> lisp123: ACL2, nqthm
<ldb> NuPRL5 is using SBCL, but it is not open source program
<ldb> NuPRL3 is avaliable from CMU AI Repository
<hayley> ML itself was originally a Lisp program, I hear. And Bobrow did his thesis on a program verifier written in Lisp, though verifying ALGOL programs.
<ldb> which includes the ML interpreter written in lisp that was also used by LCF
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<ldb> I have strip that ML implementation out to standalone program here: https://github.com/LdBeth/classicalml
<ldb> most of that type software was only on tapes or CDs
<lisp123> lbd thanks
<lisp123> hayley - yeah I see the similarities
<lisp123> ldb, is it really true that type-safe programs can double the size of a codebase?
<ldb> not really about type safe, but a program can be proved that terminates usually takes 1.5 - 2 times of code of a striaght forward implementation
<lisp123> I see
<ldb> that's the cost of write verified program, unless one just skips termination check
<lisp123> it seems interesting lisp goes the other way?
<lisp123> errors are encourage (:D just trolling) in the sense there is a condition/restart system
<lisp123> its almost like late binding of exceptions....if that makes any sense
<lisp123> and late binding is generally better, so maybe that means lisp's way is better
<ldb> well Erlang/OTP carries this concept further
<ldb> let it crash since currently there is no easy pratical ways to reasoning with concurrent systems
<lisp123> really, is there any canonical article/essay on Erlang's approach
<lisp123> I heard it was the best language for concurrency
<lisp123> thanks!
<ldb> Search erlang armstrong thesis and it pops up
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<random-jellyfish> hello, newbie here, when I get an error and it stops in the debugger with the "1. (RESTART-TOPLEVEL) Go back to Top-Level REPL." how do I actualky restart back to toplevel?
<beach> Probably by typing 1 followed by RETURN.
<beach> It depends on the debugger, so it is not standardized.
<random-jellyfish> 1 followed return returns the value 1
<random-jellyfish> I'm using ecl
<beach> Ah!
<beach> And not SLIME?
<random-jellyfish> I started it with rlwrap ecl
<beach> Oh!
<random-jellyfish> yes
<beach> Then you might have to wait for jackdaniel to answer, or read the ECL manual.
<random-jellyfish> I'm a train, on the phone in termux, trying to learn some common lisp to pass the time
<random-jellyfish> on a train*
<beach> Yes, good idea.
<random-jellyfish> ecl is the only implementation that works in termux
<random-jellyfish> another question, I installed cl-generator with ql:quickload, how do I actually use what's inside that package? because it doesn't seem to load automatically
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<beach> Each time you start up your Lisp implementation, you need to do another QUICKLOAD.
<beach> ... or use ASDF:LOAD-SYSTEM.
<random-jellyfish> okay, and after the quickload, do I have to do anything else to "load" the package and get access to the symbols inside of it?
<beach> Quicklisp does not arrange for its systems to be automatically loaded into your Lisp image when you start a new one.
<beach> The symbols are then accessible with package:symbol.
<beach> The exported symbols from some package in the system, I mean.
<random-jellyfish> is there any way to access them directly without the package: prefix?
<beach> Yes....
<beach> But it can be a bit risky, because you can then run into conflicting symbols in other packages.
<beach> The typical workflow is you define an ASDF system that :DEPENDS-ON the system (not package) you QUICKLOAD. Then in your system you have a package definition for you own package.
<beach> That package definition may contain a :USE option for the package(s) in the system you QUICKLOAD. But again, it's a bit risky.
<beach> Personally, I :USE only the COMMON-LISP package as a general rule. And I use package prefixes for other packages.
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<beach> Also, you may want to visit #clschool. This channel is not really meant for newbie questions, though they are tolerated to some extent.
<random-jellyfish> okay will do that, thanks
<beach> Sure.
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<random-jellyfish> in ECL you have to type :rN where n is the restart number in order to invoke a restart
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<jackdaniel> that's true. debugger is not very specified to leave some wiggling area for implementors
<jackdaniel> and there are hooks to use a custom debugger
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<nij-> Any library that indents json stream by, say, 4 spaces?
<nij-> I use jonathan to print stuff into json, but it gives me json in one long line.
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<phoe> jzon seems to have it, but it is not on ql yet
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<nij-> I will take a look. Thanks phoe!
<nij-> Another question .. can I use CL to edit a specific line of a huge file (with millions of lines), without going through all those lines?
<nij-> The edition should be perform quite frequently..
<nij-> So certainly, read-file -> edit -> write-file isn't an option.
<phoe> do you know the exact position of that line?
<phoe> you could FILE-POSITION and modify the line at that point, but only if the length of that line does not change
<nij-> Hmm.. yeah I read about FILE-POSITION and wonder how it works under the hood.
<nij-> I know the exact position, but the length of the line may change after edition.
<beach> nij-: What does it mean to "edit" a file?
<nij-> I may even add more lines from the point I want to start.
<nij-> beach: To change the content of a file.
<beach> nij-: In the general case, it means to copy the file with some exceptions.
<beach> So you have to read the entire file and write a copy anyway.
<phoe> nij-: a file is a poor choice of a data structure then; the only practical solution is to copy the file anyway
<nij-> Hmmmm.. *NIX based file system doesn't offer more flexible options?
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<beach> At least the files that Unix-like operating systems give us.
<phoe> adatabase might be a better option at that point
<nij-> That's good to know. So even with FILE-POSITION, it copies the whole file under the hood..
<nij-> phoe Yeah, and I believed I have been looking for an option like this since I joined #commonlisp.
<phoe> a file is just a vector of bytes/characters under the hood
<nij-> Database should be what I need. But I still want "transparency".
<phoe> what is "transparency"
<nij-> Another way to put, maybe I'd like some version controled DB.
<nij-> See, with files, I can see how the lines changed with GIT.
<nij-> And so if the DB corrupted somehow, I can see through its history easily and recover manually.
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<Josh_2> nij-: welcome to hell
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<Josh_2> persistence is a permanent problem :sob:
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<phoe> it is a persistent problem
<Alfr> ... makes problems permanent as well.
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